Charles Watson Testimony

People Vs. Charles “Tex” Watson – September 1, 1971, September 2, 1971, September 28, 1971

Charles Watson being led back to jail from a courtroom after he was convicted of seven counts of first-degree murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder.

THE COURT: People against Watson. Let the record show all jurors are present. All counsel and the defendant are present.

MR. BUBRICK: Call the defendant Watson, your Honor.

THE CLERK: Raise your right hand, please. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS: I do.

CHARLES WATSON,
the defendant herein, called as a witness on his own behalf, testified as follows

THE CLERK: Thank you. Be seated. Would you state your name?

THE WITNESS: Charles, C-h-a-r-l-e-s Watson; W-a-t-s-o-n.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK:

QUESTION: Charles, when is it that you first came to California?

ANSWER: It was in August of 1967.

QUESTION: And when you came here, where did you come from?

ANSWER: Dallas, a small town named Copeville, Texas.

QUESTION: Is Copeville where you had been raised?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And who did you live there with?

ANSWER: My parents and my brother and my sister.

QUESTION: Your sister is the oldest one in the family; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And then your brother is next, obviously, then you are the youngest?

ANSWER: Right, yes.

QUESTION: And there was just the three of you in the family; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, sir.

QUESTION: What sort of a town, or how big a town is Copeville?

ANSWER: Around 150 people.

QUESTION: Can you place it for us with respect to Dallas?

ANSWER: It is 35 miles from Dallas, I believe, north, I believe.

QUESTION: 35 miles north of Dallas?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: I take it you lived there all of your life; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: Did you go to school in Copeville?

ANSWER: I went to school in Farmersville.

QUESTION: How far is that from Copeville?

ANSWER: Seven miles.

QUESTION: How did you get there?

ANSWER: I rode the bus.

QUESTION: Did you have any difficulty in grade school or elementary school?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you go to school regularly?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you play hookey; do you know what I mean by that?

ANSWER: No, I always got a perfect attendance award every year for not missing any days.

QUESTION: Was your health good in those days?

ANSWER: Yes, very good.

QUESTION: Did you have any hobbies while you were going to grade school?

ANSWER: No, I don’t believe so, in going to grade school; just maybe working around the station and around, the house and stuff, that’s about all.

QUESTION: What did your father do?

ANSWER: He owns a gas station sad grocery store, combined.

QUESTION: Is that close to the family residence?.

ANSWER: Yes, it is; the house is right beside the store.

QUESTION: Is that the only business you have known your father to have?

ANSWER: Yes, right.

QUESTION: And did you grow up while he was conducting that station and that little store?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you work there with him from time to time?

ANSWER: After school and in — in my early years — and then after football practice and the sport practices when I was in college.

QUESTION: But in your younger years, you would help out occasionally; is that correct?

ANSWER: Right, occasionally.

QUESTION: Eventually, I take it, you went into high school; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: Where did you go to school, in high school?

ANSWER: Farmersville High School.

QUESTION: Did you go there the full four years?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you have any extracurricular activities in high school?

ANSWER: Sports, and I was in the band one year, I believe, and the big thing kind of was sports all the time, football and basketball and track.

QUESTION: Did you letter in those sports?

ANSWER: Yes, every year I lettered in sports.

QUESTION: How many letters did you get in high school?

ANSWER: Well, I got one each year; that would be four in football and in basketball and in track.

QUESTION: 12 letters for the four years?

ANSWER: 12 letters, yes.

QUESTION: Did you ever do any — did you ever belong to the 4-H Club?

ANSWER: Yes, uh-huh.

QUESTION: How long were you in that organization?

ANSWER: Two years.

QUESTION: What did you do as a member of that club?

ANSWER: I remember we raised calves and things like that, you know.

QUESTION: Did you raise a calf?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Anything else that you remember doing in the 4-H club?

ANSWER: No, I don’t remember of anything else.

QUESTION: Did you belong to something known as the FHA — I mean FFA?

ANSWER: FFA.

QUESTION: I am sorry.

ANSWER: Future Farmers.

QUESTION: Future Farmers of America?

ANSWER: Right.

QUESTION: Is that an organization similar to the 4-H club?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How big a school is Farmersville High School?

ANSWER: I’m not for sure about that at all. I know there was about 40 in my class.

QUESTION: In your graduating class?

ANSWER: Right.

QUESTION: Do you have any idea of about how many students were in the school, the total school population?

ANSWER: Just what I have heard recently, 500, but that is all I know, you know. I don’t know how many was in there.

QUESTION: What sort of grades did you get in high school?

ANSWER: A’s, mostly A’s. I made a B every once in a while.

QUESTION: Were you on any honorary societies in school, if you remember?

ANSWER: I can’t remember. I know I was in the top — one of the top 10 in my graduating class.

QUESTION: Did you do any work after school or during the summer periods while you were going to school?

ANSWER: Yes. I always worked for Mr. Carpenter at an onion packing plant, making money for college.

QUESTION: Save the money you made working for him?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you know how many summers or how many years you worked for him?

ANSWER: I was around 14 when I started working for him and I worked for him all the summers up until the summer I came to California and then I didn’t work for him that summer.

QUESTION: And the last summer would have been 1966 that you worked for him?

ANSWER: I believe so, yes.

QUESTION: You came here in ’67; is that correct?

ANSWER: Right, uh-huh.

QUESTION: I take it you did not work for him in ’67.

ANSWER: No, I didn’t.

QUESTION: What sort of work did you do for Mr. Carpenter?

ANSWER: I sacked onions and I was kind of a mechanic around the shop and I drove a forklift and when I first started graded onions and toted bags, I should say carried the bags around to plant.

QUESTION: And in your latter years, Charles, how long would you work during your summer vacation?

ANSWER: We would work up to, I remember some weeks worked up to 90 hours a week.

QUESTION: Would you work the entire summer?

ANSWER: Yes, I would.

QUESTION: From the time school let out until the time school started again?

ANSWER: Sometimes I would start just a little before school got out and work after school a little bit and then I worked all summer.

QUESTION: How did you get along with the people at the plant, the people you worked with?

ANSWER: Good.

QUESTION: Did you ever have any difficulty with any of them?

ANSWER: No, sir, not at all.

QUESTION: Did you ever have any fights with any of them?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: How did you get along with your brother and sister?

ANSWER: Very well.

QUESTION: Did you have any difficulty with them that you can recall?

ANSWER: No, never did.

QUESTION: And how about your dad? What would you say your relationship was with him?

ANSWER: Well, my relationship with him was like I said when I would get home from my school in my younger years I would kind of play around between the house and the station there, and then after I got into high school, I would always be playing sports until dark like and I would come home and then I would be at the house mostly, you know, studying or — studying until the time for bed, you know, then I would go to bed.

THE COURT: What Mr. Bubrick wants to know is did you get along well with your father.

THE WITNESS: Yes. I got along well with my father. Q BY

MR. BUBRICK: You never had any fights that you know of with your dad?

ANSWER: No, not at all.

QUESTION: Did you ever have any reason to leave home? Did you ever run away from home?

ANSWER: No, no.

QUESTION: Was your dad a pretty good mechanic?

ANSWER: Yes, uh-huh.

QUESTION: Where did you pick up your mechanical skills ?

ANSWER: From my dad.

QUESTION: After you graduated from high school, Charles, did you go on to college

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Where did you go?

ANSWER: I went to North Texas State University.

QUESTION: Incidentally, how big a person were you physically while you were going to high school?

ANSWER: Most of the time I weighed around 155 or 160; maybe up to 165 at times.

QUESTION: Is that about what you weighed while you played football?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s what I weighed when I played football.

QUESTION: How about track, did you maintain the same weight or did you slim down?

ANSWER: I don’t recall about that; I just —

QUESTION: What was your major endeavor in track?

ANSWER: High hurdles and the hundred yard dash, and the 220.

QUESTION: Do you remember the best time you ever made for the high hurdles?

ANSWER: Fourteen something; fourteen nine or fourteen eight, fourteen seven, in the upper fourteens.

QUESTION: Is that 220 high hurdle —

ANSWER: No, it is 120 high hurdles.

THE COURT: How about the hundred yard dash; what was the best you did there?

THE WITNESS: The best I ever did was nine nine.

THE COURT: Nine nine?

THE WITNESS: Right.

QUESTION BY MR. BUBRICK: Now, when you went on into college you went to Denton — sorry, you went to North Texas State in Denton; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: How far is that from Copeville?

ANSWER: Around 50 miles.

QUESTION: When you went to college, Charles, did you live in Denton or did you commute?

ANSWER: I lived in Denton.

QUESTION: Whose decision was it to go to North Texas State?

ANSWER: It was more or less my mother’s decision to go to North Texas.

QUESTION: You had an older brother who played football, didn’t you?

ANSWER: Yes, I had an older brother that played football.

QUESTION: Where did he go to school?

ANSWER: He went to school at Texas Christian University.

QUESTION: And did he go on a scholarship, if you know?

ANSWER: Yes, he did.

QUESTION: When you went to North Texas State did you go on any scholarship?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t.

QUESTION: Had your sister gone to that same school?

ANSWER: Yes, she had.

QUESTION: Did you particularly want to go to North Texas State?

ANSWER: I really didn’t know. It didn’t make me any difference, you know, where I went to college. I didn’t really object to it and I didn’t really want to, you know.

QUESTION: Well, did you really want to go to college?

ANSWER: It really wasn’t my decision, you know, like my brother and sister had gone, so that’s what I was expected to do, was to go to college.

QUESTION: You felt that was what was expected of you; is that correct?

ANSWER: In a way, yes.

QUESTION: And that I take it you did actually enroll and go for three years; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Did you do any work while you were going to school?

ANSWER: Well, the summers I would work at the onion packing plant until the last semester in college; and I started working for Braniff International.

QUESTION: I appreciate that you worked during the summer, Charles; but did you do anything while you were going to school —

ANSWER: No

QUESTION: — did you work after school, days? .

ANSWER: No, I didn’t work after school. I had saved mymoney, you know.

QUESTION: Did you come home very frequently?

ANSWER: Not very frequently, no, I didn’t.

QUESTION: Did you have any transportation? Did you have a car by this time?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: When did you first get a car, if you remember?

ANSWER: I believe my last year in high school I got a car.

QUESTION: And did you take that on to college with you?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: When did you start to work for the airlines?

ANSWER: I started to work for the airlines, I believe, around the first part of 1967.

QUESTION: Were you still going to school then?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And where did you work, in what facility did you work?

ANSWER: Dallas, Texas.

QUESTION: And how did you get from Denton to Dallas?

ANSWER: I would drive.

QUESTION: How far is that?

ANSWER: I believe it is around 40 miles.

QUESTION: 40 miles each way?

ANSWER: I believe, yes.

QUESTION: And did you maintain a full course of studies in college?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Then what did you do, work everyday after school?

ANSWER: No, I worked — yeah, everyday after school, right.

QUESTION: How long, how many hours would you work daily?

ANSWER: I worked a full eight hours, plus I went to school full time and worked full. time.

QUESTION: Do you remember what time your classes would let out so that you could get on to work?

ANSWER: Sometimes — let’s see, during that period I believe they got over between noon and 2:00 o’clock, something like that.

QUESTION: Then after class was over you’d drive down to the airlines?

ANSWER: Right.

QUESTION: Where, what facility did you work at; did you work at some airport or something?

ANSWER: Dallas airport.

QUESTION: Do you remember the name of that?

ANSWER: l believe it was Love Field, I believe.

QUESTION: Love Field?

ANSWER: Love Field, yes.

QUESTION: And you would leave school and drive the distance to Love Field, and how long would you work at the airport?

ANSWER: l would work there till around midnight.

QUESTION: And then what would you do?

ANSWER: Then I would come back and study or go to sleep, and get up and go to classes again.

QUESTION: How long did you maintain this schedule?

ANSWER: Until school was out in the summer.

QUESTION: Summer of ’67?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And what sort of grades did you get that semester?

ANSWER: Much lower grades than I had been getting.

QUESTION: And what happened in the summer of ’67, if anything?

ANSWER: Well, I quit the airlines and decided to move to California.

QUESTION: Now, do you remember — did you know Dave Neal in school?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: And how did you happen to know him?

ANSWER: He was a fraternity brother of mine.

QUESTION: Did you live at a fraternity house?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Did Dave live there?

ANSWER: No, Dave didn’t.

QUESTION: How often would you see Dave at school?

ANSWER: Quite often, you know, during the weeks.

QUESTION: Was Dave a football player at school?

ANSWER: Yes, he was on — I believe he had a scholarship or something like that in school.

QUESTION: Did you know that Dave had moved to California?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: I take it you realized he had dropped out of school?

ANSWER: Not for sure about that.

QUESTION: But you did know that he came to California?

ANSWER: I know he came to California and he didn’t finish, so he must of — I don’t know if he dropped — I guess you’d call it dropout.

QUESTION: How long did you go to college?

ANSWER: Three years.

QUESTION: And you dropped out your last year; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct. I didn’t go my senior year.

THE COURT: Charles, have you told us when you were born?

THE WITNESS: I was born December 2nd, 1945.

QUESTION BY MR. BUBRICK: You actually were born in Dallas; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Then you moved right to Copeville thereafter?

ANSWER: I guess I did. That was pretty early, you know.

QUESTION: Do you have any recollection of ever having lived in Dallas?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: Do you know how it was that you came to find Dave in California?

ANSWER: I remember that he — right at the end of school, I believe, that last semester, he was visiting some people in Denton — I believe his family or something — and he talked about California and I knew then I knew someone in California then, I guess, you know.

QUESTION: Did you know where in California he lived?

ANSWER: No, I did not. I didn’t know. I just knew he was in California.

QUESTION: Prior to coming to California, Charles, had you ever visited any other parts of the country?

ANSWER: No, other than I had been to Mexico a couple of times.

QUESTION: How did you get there?

ANSWER: On Braniff Airlines, passes and things like that.

QUESTION: This is while you worked for the airline company; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Do you remember how many times you flew to Mexico with them?

ANSWER: I believe a couple of times. I went to Acapulco.

QUESTION: Both times?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And were those the only flights that you made out of Texas other than to California, if you remember?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Do you remember how you got in touch with Dave when you decided to come out here?

ANSWER: I phoned him.

QUESTION: From where?

ANSWER: From Dallas, I believe.

QUESTION: How did you find out where he lived here in Los Angeles, or in California, I should say?

ANSWER: I don’t remember really but I believe the telephone was in his name or something like that.

QUESTION: And so you called him when?

ANSWER: Around in August of ’67.

QUESTION: Did you come out here then?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: How many times? Do you remember?

ANSWER: I would say about four times, I believe.

QUESTION: You came out here at some time you decided to stay permanently; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes. The last time I decided to stay permanently.

QUESTION: How many trips did you make between Dallas and California before you came here on a permanent basis?

ANSWER: I would say about four.

QUESTION: Do you remember when they occurred?

ANSWER: During the month of August, I believe, maybe the latter part of July, I believe. I can’t recall for sure.

QUESTION: When would you come out, if you remember, what days of the week?

ANSWER: I would come out on the weekend, or when my — I would be working for them and then when my two days came up to be off, I would come out.

QUESTION: How did you come out? On passes?

ANSWER: Yes, and half fare, I believe.

QUESTION: Always on Braniff Airlines?

ANSWER: No; it was on Delta Airlines.

QUESTION: Delta?

ANSWER: Yes,

QUESTION: When did you decide to come out here permanently, if you remember?

ANSWER: The latter part of August before school started that year.

QUESTION: In 1967?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: When you made that move, Charles, did you bring anything with you?

ANSWER: I brought all my possessions with me.

QUESTION: What did that include, if you remember?

ANSWER: All my clothes, I had quite a lot of clothes and a lot of stereo equipment and camera equipment and things like towels and linens and just all kinds of little gadgets, you know.

QUESTION: And prior to the time that you left Texas to come to California, had you ever had any drugs? Ever use any drugs?

ANSWER: I used marijuana one time.

QUESTION: Where was that?

ANSWER: That was in Dallas.

QUESTION: Do you remember what year?

ANSWER: That was nearly the day I moved to California,

QUESTION: What?

ANSWER: Nearly the day — it was just about the same day or right around the time,

QUESTION: That would have been in August of ’67?

ANSWER: Yes, right.

QUESTION: Do you remember who you used it with?

ANSWER: I used it with a girl in Dallas.

QUESTION: Is that the only occasion on which you used marijuana in Texas?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Did you use any other drugs in Texas?

ANSWER: None other than one or two times I stayed up for exams or something at school and some kind of a pill that would make you stay awake, you know, like to be able to stay up and study for the test, one or two times. I believe that is all.

QUESTION: Other than those two occasions, are there any other drugs that you can think of that you used in Texas?

ANSWER: No, none at all.

QUESTION: When you came to California then in August of ‘67, where did you stay, if you remember?

ANSWER: I moved in with David and his brother.

QUESTION: Where were they living, if you remember?

ANSWER: In the Hollywood area, I believe.

QUESTION: Did you bring your possessions with you, or were they trans shipped, if you remember?

ANSWER: Some of them I brought with me and a lot of them were shipped in a big trunk, I remember a big trunk, and big boxes.

QUESTION: Did you take all the things with you then to David or wherever he lived with his brother?

ANSWER: Yes, right.

QUESTION: How long did you stay there?

ANSWER: I believe around two or three weeks.

QUESTION: Can you fix the time of year for us now?

ANSWER: It was before school has started and before I had enrolled in school at Cal State.

QUESTION: Did you actually enroll at Cal State?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Do you remember when that was?’

ANSWER: I believe school started around the middle of September, is that correct? The middle of September or somewhere like that.

QUESTION: What brought you to California, if you know?

ANSWER: I don’t really know why. I think it was just maybe the adventure, i guess — that’s about it, about the adventure, I guess, I mean —

QUESTION: You told us how big a city Copeville. was. How big a city was Farmersville?

ANSWER: Around 2,000 people.

QUESTION: And how about Denton?

ANSWER: I don’t have any idea.

QUESTION: Was it bigger than Farmersville?

ANSWER: Yes, it was big — bigger.

QUESTION: And aside from being away from home at Denton, had you ever been away from home before?

ANSWER: No, I haven’t .

QUESTION: So this is really the first time that you have been away from home, on any extended period; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, it was the first time away from home.

QUESTION: You enrolled, then, at Cal State in September of ’67; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Did you go to school?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: For how long?

ANSWER: Up until the time when you could — it was right after the time when you couldn’t drop out, without getting all — right after that time.

QUESTION: Can you tell us how long you went in terms of weeks, months or anything like that?

ANSWER: I’d say a couple of months.

QUESTION: Then you just left school, did you?

ANSWER: Yes, I, was working at the same time and going to school.

QUESTION: What sort of work were you doing about this time?

ANSWER: I was working for a wig company.

QUESTION: Do you remember where it was located?

ANSWER: It was — in Beverly Hills.

QUESTION: Is this still a time when you were living with David and his brother?

ANSWER: No, I had moved; David and I had moved into an apartment together.

QUESTION: When did you make that move?

ANSWER: A couple of weeks after I was living with David in Hollywood, after — a couple of weeks after I came to California.

QUESTION: Was that before you enrolled in school?

ANSWER: Both of those happened about the same time.

QUESTION: So that might have been what, September of ‘67?

ANSWER: Yes, right.

QUESTION: When did you go to work for the wig company, if you know?

ANSWER: Around the same time.

QUESTION: What sort of work were you doing?

ANSWER: Started out walking around the streets passing out cards to women to get them to come into the shop.

QUESTION: For wigs?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How long. did you do that?

ANSWER: Until I started selling: wigs in the shop.

QUESTION: How long did you work at the wig shop?

ANSWER: Until I had an automobile accident.

QUESTION: When did that occur?

ANSWER: That was at the first of ’68.

QUESTION: In January?

ANSWER: In January, I believe, yes.

QUESTION: Where were you living — were you living at the same place with David while you worked at this wig shop?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And were you living with David when you had the accident?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you have some surgery; were you hospitalized with the accident?

ANSWER: I had a knee operation.

QUESTION: Do you remember when that was?

ANSWER: That was about a month after the accident..

QUESTION: Were you laid up for any period of time, if you remember?

ANSWER: Yes, for a while; and then for, I guess — I don’t know how long, but I laid up a while and then I went back working for the wig company.

QUESTION: Did your mother come out to visit you while you were laid up?

ANSWER: Yes, she did.

QUESTION: How long did she stay, if you remember?

ANSWER: I don’t remember exactly; about a week, I believe.

QUESTION: When you went back to work did you go to work for the same wig company?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: How much longer did you work for that company?

ANSWER: I believe about a month or two, I believe.

QUESTION: What happened after you left that job?

ANSWER: David and I opened up a wig shop of our own.

QUESTION: Where did you do that?

ANSWER: It was close to Wilshire, I know.

QUESTION: In the west end of town, downtown, where?

ANSWER: Probably about 10 miles from downtown, I believe.

QUESTION: Was it in the western part of the city?

ANSWER: No, it was kind of in the Hollywood district.

QUESTION: How long did you maintain that business, the one that you and David started?

ANSWER: Not for very long, because it didn’t work out, didn’t make any money.

QUESTION: Did you ever meet anybody by the name of Dennis Wilson?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: When did you meet him, if you know?

ANSWER: It was right around the time when we went out of business at the wig shop.

QUESTION: How did you happen to meet Dennis Wilson?

ANSWER: I was driving down Sunset Boulevard toward the ocean and then I picked him up hitch-hiking.

QUESTION: Now, up until the time that you mat Dennis Wilson and after you moved here to California, had you used any drugs

ANSWER: Yes, I had used marijuana and hash..

QUESTION: What is hash?

ANSWER: That’s a form of marijuana; the same thing as marijuana, I believe; and rosewood seeds one time.

QUESTION: Do you remember where you were living when you used the rosewood seeds?

ANSWER: I was living in Laurel Canyon.

QUESTION: Had you used them on any other occasion other than this one?

ANSWER: No, I only used them once.

QUESTION: What effect, if any, did it have on you, if you know?

ANSWER: Well, a lot of hallucinations. I remember the room came in on me completely; and it seems like my head was just in one little room, you know, and the little room was around my head. And I remember I hit a door, hit the door and put my hand through a door; and kind of got mad at the guy that gave them to us, you know. I never had did anything like that or anything, and I couldn’t understand why he had given me something that would make me do that.

QUESTION: Was anybody else with you at the time you took the rosewood seeds?

ANSWER: David was with me — David.

QUESTION: Other than that you had smoked marijuana and hash; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: Had you ever had any reaction from those drugs?

ANSWER: No, none at all.

QUESTION: Do you remember on how many occasions you might have smoked them?

ANSWER: We smoked — I don’t know how many occasions.

QUESTION: Numerous?

ANSWER: Yea, uh-huh.

QUESTION: Now, can you tell us about when it was that you met Dennis Wilson?

ANSWER: It must have been around in April, I guess, April of May of it would be ’68.

QUESTION: I think you told us you picked him up hitch-hiking; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: Where did you take him, if you remember?

ANSWER: I took him to his house.

QUESTION: Where was that?

ANSWER: It was in Pacific Palisades.

QUESTION: Was there anybody else there when you got there?

ANSWER: Yes, a guy by the name of Dean Moorehouse was there; and Charles Manson was there and he had a bunch of girls with him, about five or six girls.

QUESTION: Had you ever met any of these people before?

ANSWER: No, that was the first time.

QUESTION: How long did you stay at Dennis Wilson’s on the date of your first meeting with him?

ANSWER: Just for a while that evening.

QUESTION: Did anything unusual happen while you were there?

ANSWER: No, not nothing unusual. We just sat around the coffee-table and the girls brought in some food and. we smoked some hash that night.

QUESTION: That was the first night you met Dennis and the other people?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Was there anything other than hash that was used, if you remember?

ANSWER: No, not at all.

QUESTION: What sort of a car were you driving, if you remember?

ANSWER: I was driving an old truck, ’35 Dodge, kind of an antique truck.

QUESTION: I think you told us you stayed a couple of hours that evening, did you?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Where did you go after that?

ANSWER: I went back — I went, drove on down to where our house was on the beach.

QUESTION: In the Malibu area?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Were you still living with somebody else?

ANSWER: I was living with David at the time.

QUESTION: Were you working at this time?

ANSWER: No. I had just went out of the wig business..

QUESTION: Did you see Dennis Wilson often thereafter?

ANSWER: On occasions I would drop by and visit and go swimming in the pool.

QUESTION: Did you become friendly with anybody you met at Dennis Wilson’s?

ANSWER: Dennis wasn’t there a lot and a guy by the name of Dean Moorehouse was living there. He was kind of the one that raked up the leaves and kind of took care of the place.

QUESTION: Where was he living, if you know?

ANSWER: He was living it a little log cabin behind the main house.

QUESTION: That is on Dennis Wilson’s property?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Would you see Dean Morehouse frequently?

ANSWER: Yes, quite often. I eventually moved into Dennis’ house. Dennis asked me to move in.

QUESTION: Do you remember when you did that?

ANSWER: David and I leased out the beachhouse, our beachhouse, and then after that I really didn’t have a place to stay, so Dennis asked me to move in to his place.

QUESTION: How many times would you say you had seen Dennis or you had been at Dennis’ house from the time that you first met him and the time that you moved in?

ANSWER: Probably 10 times.

QUESTION: How about Dean Moorehouse, had you met him on a number of occasions?

ANSWER: Every time I was there, he was there.

QUESTION: How about Charles Manson?

ANSWER: Charles Manson was there a few times and his girls was always there, you know.

QUESTION: When you say “his girls,” do you know who they were? Can you identify them for us?

ANSWER: No, I can’t. I believe Brenda was there, a girl by the name of Diane.

QUESTION: Is that Diane Lake?

ANSWER: She always went by the name of Diane Bluestein. That was her names.

QUESTION: Is that the Diane that you are talking about?

ANSWER: Yes, Diane Lake is the Diane I are talking about and another girl named Diane, too, that was a girl friend of Dennis’ was living there.

QUESTION: Do you know her last name?

ANSWER: No, I don’t.

QUESTION: Does Mr. Moorehouse have a daughter?

ANSWER: Yes, he had a daughter.

QUESTION: Was she there?

ANSWER: On occasion she was there. She lived out at the ranch mostly.

QUESTION: What would you do when you would visit with Dennis before you moved in?

ANSWER: Just kind of go over and sit around and go swimming and then Dean Moorehouse would be talking to me all the time, you know.

QUESTION: What did he talk about?

ANSWER: Kind of about dropping out of society, I guess you would say, or about society.

QUESTION: What would he say about society that you can now remember?

ANSWER: Well, he would talk about how they had a lot of wants and desires, of wanting material things, and how they had a lot of thought in their heads and a lot of wants.

QUESTION: Did he say there was anything wrong with having thoughts in your head or having wants?

ANSWER: Yes. He said that this was where the — that it was destroying the love in the world.

QUESTION: Did he ever tell you how he defined love?

ANSWER: Not having any thought, being able to give everything that you had.

QUESTION: On how many occasions would you say you and Mr. Moorehouse talked along these lines?

ANSWER: Every time I was around him, this is all he talked about.

QUESTION: Were you taking any drugs at this time?

ANSWER: During that period, just marijuana.

QUESTION: And how frequently were you using that?

ANSWER: Pretty frequently.

QUESTION: At Dennis Wilson’s?

ANSWER: Yes, before I moved in.

QUESTION: Any other drugs that you used while you were at Dennis’?

ANSWER: After I moved in, I took some LSD.

QUESTION: Let’s stop there a minute. Had you ever used anything like LSD before you moved in to Dennis Wilson’s?

ANSWER: No, this — no, never had used LSD before.

QUESTION: Had you been staying with Dean Moorehouse before you moved into Dennis Wilson’s?

ANSWER: Well, I wasn’t staying with Dean Moorehouse, until I moved in to Dennis Wilson’s house.

QUESTION: When you say you moved in with Dennis Wilson, did you move into the main house or did you move into the cabin that Dean Moorehouse lived in?

ANSWER: I moved into the main house, in one of the bedrooms.

QUESTION: I think you told us you used some LSD there; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, LSD, but it was real light, like it really didn’t have a big effect.

QUESTION: Do you remember what effect, if any, it did have on you?

ANSWER: At that time it just kind of made me submit and believe more of what Dean Moorehouse was saying.

QUESTION: And was he saying the same thing you have told us about hare before?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Would Dean Moorehouse use LSD at the same time you did, if you know?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How about Dennis Wilson?

ANSWER: I never did take LSD that much, when I was living at Dennis Wilson’s house.

QUESTION: Did you ever see Manson while you were at Dennis Wilson’s house?

ANSWER: Yes. He would always be coming over quite frequently.

QUESTION: Did you ever see Mr. Manson use any LSD?

ANSWER: On one occasion, I believe while I was at Dennis’ house.

QUESTION: How long did you live at Dennis’ house?

ANSWER: Up until the end of August or close to the end of August.

QUESTION: What year?

ANSWER: I believe, ’68.

QUESTION: Now, can you tell us the number of times that you used LSD while you lived at Dennis Wilson’s house?

ANSWER: Around two times; one time some people came by and gave it to us, and then another time I believe Dean had it that time.

QUESTION: Did Dean use LSD both times that you did?

ANSWER: Yes, he did.

QUESTION: Were you using anything other than LSD while you were living at Dennis’, other than the marijuana and hash that you have told us about?

ANSWER: Yes, some cannabinol — that’s a synthetic marijuana, I believe.

QUESTION: Does that also go by some initials, if you know?

ANSWER: THC, I believe.

QUESTION: Anything else?

ANSWER: That’s all.

QUESTION: Were the girls there —

ANSWER: Let’s see, I think we took some — one time we took some peyote there.

QUESTION: Do you remember who brought that?

ANSWER: No, I don’t remember who brought it by. I remember they cooked it or something. I remember I threw it up and that was it.

QUESTION: Do you remember what form the peyote took?

ANSWER: It was a cactus like plant.

QUESTION: Then what did they do with it, if you know?

ANSWER: They cooked it up and we were supposed to eat it, you know; and that’s what we did.

QUESTION: You ate some solid mass?

ANSWER: Right, it didn’t stay down; I threw it up.

QUESTION: Did you take it on any other occasion that you remember, at Dennis Wilson’s?

ANSWER: No, none at all; that’s all I took at Dennis Wilson’s.

QUESTION: Did you still have your truck and the hi-fi equipment and the other property you brought with you from Texas?

ANSWER: Yes, I had the truck and it was loaded down with all of my possessions that I could get in it and the rest was at the beachhouse that we had leased out. I had a storage, kind of.

QUESTION: What did you do with the stuff that was on your truck?

ANSWER: I gave it to Charles Manson.

QUESTION: Do you remember when you did that?

ANSWER: It was right before I left Dennis Wilson’s house and after Dean had been talking to me, telling me about Charlie and all of the philosophies and stuff.

QUESTION: Can you fix the time of it for us?

ANSWER: It was around in August of ’68.

QUESTION: What did you give Charlie Manson?

ANSWER: I gave him the truck and all of the possessions that I had in the truck at the time.

QUESTION: You mean you physically just turned it over to him?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s correct.

QUESTION: And you actually turned it over to Manson; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you have a pink slip for this truck?

ANSWER: I don’t believe I had a pink slip, but I had a bill of sale.

QUESTION: Did you give that to Manson?

ANSWER: Yes, I did. I believe a girl by the name of Ruth Moorehouse, Charlie put it in her name.

QUESTION: Do you know that of your own knowledge?

ANSWER: No, it never did go in her name because the truck stayed in my name, I found out later; but I believe I do remember her signing something to get it, you know.

QUESTION: Did Mr. Manson ever tell you what he did with this property?

ANSWER: No, he said, I believe, something to the effect he just let it kind of flow through him.

QUESTION: Was there any particular reason for giving it to a woman or a girl?

ANSWER: Well, he said that he always put it in the girls’ name, because he knew the girls would stay with him, where he didn’t know about the guys completely. Be knew that the guys were always running off and he didn’t want anything in the men’s name, wanted to keep it in the girls’ names because he had control of all the girls.

QUESTION: Well, did you have any feelings about. turning your truck and property over to Mr. Manson?

ANSWER: No, I just gave it right to him.

QUESTION: Did you want to do that?

ANSWER: At the time, that’s what I did, you know.

QUESTION: Had you been talking to Dean Moorehouse frequently?

ANSWER: Yes, like I was living with Dean, you know, day and night; and this is what he would preach. He would preach Manson’s philosophy and also out of the bible.

QUESTION: Did you know anything about Dean Moorehouse at all?

ANSWER: Just that he had told me that he’d given his — that he had set one daughter free, and this was Ruth he was talking about, because he had given her to Charles Manson; and that Charlie had given him LSD up north, and that he was an ex-Methodist minister.

QUESTION: Is that what Dean moorehouse told you?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s correct.

QUESTION: Did he quote the scriptures?

ANSWER: Yes, he was always reading out of the bible and quoting the scriptures and relating the bible to Manson’s philosophy.

QUESTION: Was there anybody — strike that. Did Dean Moorehouse tell you anything about anybody in the family, the Manson family, owning anything in their own name?

ANSWER: No,none at all; everything was one. He used to talk about the oneness and how everybody was — how you gave up your identity and all of your wants and all of your desires and all your thought and became one, as one person.

QUESTION: Were you permitted to own property in your own name as a member of the family?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did Morehouse say anything about that?

ANSWER: He said that everything belonged to one and the one was Manson.

QUESTION: Now, you said something about you left, you moved from Dennis’ when, in August of ‘68?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: Where did you go then, if you remember?

ANSWER: Dean Moorehouse and I went up north to his trial. He was having a trial on LSD or something; he was being tried on LSD.

QUESTION: Do you remember where the trial was being conducted?

ANSWER: No, I know it was on the other side of San Francisco.

QUESTION: You mean north of San Francisco?

ANSWER: North of San Francisco.

QUESTION: How did you get up there?

ANSWER: We went in Terry Melcher’s car.

QUESTION: Had you ever met Terry Melchor?

ANSWER: Yes, I met Terry Melcher at Dennis’ house at — I guess you’d call it kind of a party, like Dean and I was living there and then Greg Jakobson was living there, and a bunch of Greg’s and Dennis’ friends just happened to be over one day and I guess you’d call, it kind of a party, I think.

QUESTION: Is that the first time that you met Terry Melcher?

ANSWER: Yes. I met him that times that was the first time. I remember Dean said that was Doris Day’s son or something like that.

QUESTION: Can you remember when this occurred?

ANSWER: It was in the last month that we were at Dennis Wilson’s house. That would have been in August.

QUESTION: August of ’68?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: When you say you went with Dean Moorehouse to his trial in Terry Melcher’s car, where did you get that car?

ANSWER: Terry, I believe Dean had been talking to Terry about going up north and Terry offered Dean his car to use.

QUESTION: Were you with Dean when he picked up the car?

ANSWER: Yes, I was.

QUESTION: Do you remember where Terry Melcher was living at the time?

ANSWER: He was living — it is on Cielo Drive, I believe, off of Benedict Canyon Road.

QUESTION: How did you get up there, if you remember? I am talking about the day you went with Dean to get the car.

ANSWER: Yes. Dean had already picked up the car and he had asked me to come along with him on the trip, when we moved out of Dennis’ house, and went by Terry Melcher’s house to pick up his credit card.

QUESTION: Whose credit card?

ANSWER: Terry Melcher’s credit card.

QUESTION: Dean already had Terry Melcher’s car; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Now he was going to get Terry Meletter’s credit card?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Do you remember a gate somewhere in the driveway leading up to the Terry Melcher house?

ANSWER: It seems like I recall it but I don’t believe — I can’t recall it having any big thing on it right now. I do recall going through a gate, yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember whether it was open or closed when you got up there?

ANSWER: I can’t remember at that time.

QUESTION: After you got in the front of the house, do you remember what you did?

ANSWER: We went in the house in the front room..

QUESTION: Did you knock on the door to get in the house?

ANSWER: I can’t recall.

QUESTION: You went in the house with Dean Moorehouse?

ANSWER: With Dean, yes.

QUESTION: Had you ever been in that house before?

ANSWER: No, not before, no.

QUESTION: This was the very first time you had ever been in it?

ANSWER: This was the first time.

QUESTION: Ever been at a party at that. house?

ANSWER: No, no party at that house.

QUESTION: And you went into the front room, did you?

ANSWER: Yes, right.

QUESTION: And Dean was also share?

ANSWER: Yes, that is right.

QUESTION: Did something happen between Dean and Terry?

ANSWER: No. I remember we sat around in the front room, Dean and Terry and I, and we smoked some Marijuana together.

QUESTION: Was there anybody else there with Terry Melcher?

ANSWER: His maid was there and his butler, I believe he called it, or chauffeur.

QUESTION: They didn’t smoke any marijuana?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: The three of you smoked marijuana. How long did you stay on that occasion?

ANSWER: I don’t recall. I can’t recall. I can’t recall how long we stayed — not too long, though, an hour I would say or something like that.

QUESTION: And then I take it you left sometime shortly after that?

ANSWER: Yes, we did.

QUESTION: Did Dean get Terry’s credit card?

ANSWER: Yes, his credit card and his car.

QUESTION: What sort of a car did he get?

ANSWER: It was a black XKE.

QUESTION: Jaguar?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you drive up north with Dean?

ANSWER: Yes. Before going up north, though, we went by a place called the Fountain of the World. where Charlie Manson was, had a school bus parked there.

QUESTION: Where is the Fountain of the World?

ANSWER: That is up in Box Canyon close to Spahn’s Ranch.

QUESTION: That is in the Chatsworth area?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Had you ever been there before?

ANSWER: No. That was the first time.

THE COURT: Mr. Bubrick, might this be a good time to recess.

MR. BUBRICK: Yes.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen we will recess at this time until 1:30. Please once again heed the admonition heretofore given by the court. The spectators will remain seated until the jury leaves.

(The noon recess was taken until 1:30 p.m. of the same day.)

THE COURT: People against Watson. Let the record show all jurors, all counsel. and the defendant are present. Mr. Watson, would you resume the stand, please?

THE CLERK: You have been previously sworn.

CHARLES WATSON,
resumed the stand and testified as follows

THE CLERK: Would you restate your name for the record?

THE WITNESS: Charles Watson.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, before I pick up where I left off, may I approach the witness, please?

THE COURT: You may do so.

MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, I have three photographs have heretofore shown them to counsel; I show the defendant the defendant’s photograph — may it be marked WA for “Watson A,” if your Honor please?

THE COURT: It may be so marked. Gentlemen, for the record, we have the alphabetical series in another case under the same number, so I think to keep them apart we’ll prefix all the defense exhibits with a “W,” indicating “Watson.”

MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. BUBRICK

QUESTION: I show you WA, Mr. Watson, and ask you to look at that picture, please. Do you recall the photograph being taken at or about the time of your graduation?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And is that the kind of a cap and gown you wore at the time of graduation?

ANSWER: Yes, it is.

QUESTION: And do you recognize that picture as a picture of you at the time of graduation?

ANSWER: Yes.

MR. BUBRICK: I have another photograph; may it be marked WB for identification, if your Honor please?

QUESTION: I show you that photograph, Mr. Watson, and ask you if you recognize the likeness of yourself in that photo?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember when it was taken?

ANSWER: I believe my junior year in high school.

MR. BUBRICK: I have another photo, your Honor; may it be marked WC?

QUESTION: And I show you that WC, Mr. Watson, and ask you to look at that photo, please. Do you recognize yourself in a football uniform?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And do you remember when that photo was taken?

ANSWER: Either my junior or senior year.

QUESTION: Do you happen to remember the game that you were playing in at the time?

ANSWER: No, I don’t.

THE COURT: Is that your number, 26?

THE WITNESS: Yes, 26.

QUESTION BY MR. BUBRICK: Now, Mr. Watson, I think when we left off at the noon break you were with Mr. Dean Morehouse in Terry Melcher’s Jaguar and you were at the Fountain of the World in Box Canyon. Do you recall that?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Who was at the Fountain of the World?

ANSWER: Charlie Manson and about six of his girls. I believe, and then the people that lived at the Fountain of the World.

QUESTION: What was the Fountain of the World?

ANSWER: I am really not for sure what it is. I believe it is some church organization or something like that but don’t really know that much about it at all.

QUESTION: All right. Where was Manson and the girls? Where were they living when you got up there?

ANSWER: Charlie had a school bus and it was parked on top of a hill right by the Fountain and they were working around the Fountain, I believe, and eating and joining in with the group there or something like that.

QUESTION: You had met Manson prior to this date, had you not?

ANSWER: Yes; at Dennis Wilson’s house.

QUESTION: How about the girls that were there with Manson? Had you met all of them before?

ANSWER: No, I hadn’t.

QUESTION: Do you remember who the girls were in the bus at the Fountain of the World?

ANSWER: I remember two of them. One was Sandy and a girl by the name of Bo.

QUESTION: Now, did anything occur while you were with Dean Moorehouse at the bus?

ANSWER: No. About the only thing I remember is a ride over the hill to the ranch and I remember meeting —

QUESTION: Wait. When you got to the bus, did Dean get out and stay there?

ANSWER: Yes, he did, uh-huh.

QUESTION: Did you leave?

ANSWER: After being there a little Charlie asked Dean to borrow the black car.

QUESTION: You mean Charlie Manson?

ANSWER: Yes, asked Dean.

QUESTION: Did Manson borrow the car?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you go with Manson?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Where did you go with him?

ANSWER: We went over to Spahn’s Ranch.

QUESTION: Did Manson tell you why he wanted you to go with him?

ANSWER: Well, he said that he wanted to get me away from the girls because I was talking about the wrong things, or something. I had too much ego he said and I was talking about I guess, my past or what was — you know, I was talking too about things, I guess.

QUESTION: Too much about the past?

ANSWER: Too much about what I had in my head, I guess, what I was talking about, you know.

QUESTION: Did you talk to any of the girls at the bus?

ANSWER: I remember talking to one about Mexico or something, you know, something about Mexico, I believe, you know. He didn’t want me talking about things outside of the family, you know, so he took me away from the girls and we went over to the ranch.

QUESTION: How long did you stay at the ranch?

ANSWER: Not very long.

QUESTION: Can you give us any idea of the distance between Fountain of the World and Spahn. Ranch?

ANSWER: Probably about five miles.

QUESTION: Who drove the car?

ANSWER: Charlie did.

QUESTION: Charlie Manson?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember who you met, if anybody, at all at the Spahn Ranch?

ANSWER: I remember seeing some of the girls, you know, running around the ranch. I met Juan Flynn, I believe that is the name, met him, and I remember seeing my truck that I had given them.

QUESTION: Do you remember seeing what? I’m sorry. What?

ANSWER: My ’35 truck that I gave Charlie.

QUESTION: The ’35 Dodge?

ANSWER: Yes. It was parked there at the ranch and that is about all I remember happening then, you know.

QUESTION: Did you do anything at all at the. ranch that day?

ANSWER: No, just drove over there and back.

QUESTION: How long did you stay?

ANSWER: I’d say probably around an hour, I guess; 30 minutes or an hour, not too long at all.

QUESTION: Then you drove back up to the Fountain of the World, did you?

ANSWER: That’s right.

QUESTION: Did Manson drive?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Was Dean Moorehouse there when you got back?

ANSWER: Yes, he was.

QUESTION: What happened so far as you and Dean Moorehouse are concerned, then, after you got back?

ANSWER: Then we took out up north.

QUESTION: Where did you go?

ANSWER: To a town the other side of San Francisco.

QUESTION: Is that where Dean Moorehouse had a trial going?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s correct.

QUESTION: Did you drive directly to that city?

ANSWER: Well, we was on the road to the city all the time but we stopped, I believe, a couple times along the beach, and that about all.

QUESTION: Would you recognize the name of the city if you heard it?

ANSWER: Probably would, yeah.

QUESTION: Were you going to Ukiah?

ANSWER: Yeah, Ukiah, that’s the name of it.

QUESTION: Up in Mendicino?

ANSWER: Mendicino, yeah, that was close by, I believe.

QUESTION: Did you spend any nights on the road after leaving the Fountain of the World and before arriving at Ukiah?

ANSWER: I believe we drove all afternoon and drove all night.

QUESTION: How long did you stay in Ukiah, if you remember?

ANSWER: I’d say a week or two.

QUESTION: Incidentally, did you use any drugs on your way up to Ukiah?

ANSWER: I believe when we stopped along the beach a couple of times we met some guys one time that gave us some marijuana and we had a few marijuana cigarettes, and that’s about all on the way up.

QUESTION: Did Dean Moorehouse talk while you drove up north?

ANSWER: Yes, that was his thing, kind of; he would continuously kind of preach, you know.

QUESTION: What did he talk about on the way up north?

ANSWER: The same thing, you know, person losing their ego and losing their thought, and this way you’d have more love, you know, to give.

QUESTION: Had you formed any attachment or feelings for Dean Moorehouse by this time?

ANSWER: Yeah, Dean and I were pretty close.

QUESTION: What did you think of him as, if you did?

ANSWER: He was just a close friend, I’d say.

QUESTION: Had you formed any opinion about Mr. Manson by this time?

ANSWER: No, just like that’s what Dean was always talking about, was Manson; and the way Manson had brought him to thinking like this, always talking about Manson’s philosophy as well as his.

QUESTION: Well, did Dean refer to Manson as anything in particular?

ANSWER: Not that I can recall.

QUESTION: Was Manson ever referred to as Jesuit Christ?

ANSWER: Yes, he was referred to that when I got back and started living with the family, I knew him as that.

QUESTION: Did Dean Moorehouse ever refer to him as Christ?

ANSWER: I’m not for sure; I know that Dean was always talking about Christ and seems like the two had so much together, you know, by him talking about Christ and by him talking about Manson at the same time, that it just kind of became that Manson was Christ.

QUESTION: Do you remember where you stayed in Ukiah when you finally got there, Charles?

ANSWER: At a friend’s, a friend of Dean Moorehouse’s; and a friend of the family’s, too, I believe.

QUESTION: Now, you think you stayed up north a week or two?

ANSWER: Yes, right.

QUESTION: And you were using Terry Melcher’s credit card, were you?

ANSWER: Yes, gasoline and stuff.

QUESTION: Did you use any drugs while you were up north with Dean?

ANSWER: I believe at the house we stayed at we smoked marijuana a couple times or so.

QUESTION: And when Dean’s matter was over up north, did you come back with him?

ANSWER: Yes, we did.

QUESTION: Did you drive back in a car?

ANSWER: Yes, same car.

QUESTION: And do you remember stopping in San Francisco on your way back?

ANSWER: Yes, we did stop in San Francisco.

QUESTION: Did anything happen in San Francisco?

ANSWER: We stopped at a friend of Dean’s, and the guy gave him some LSD. It was yellow, I remember, bright yellow LSD.

QUESTION: What happened to that?

ANSWER: We took a couple of trips together and then we gave the rest to Charlie when we moved in with Charlie.

QUESTION: Do you remember how much acid you got from this fellow up in San Francisco?

ANSWER: I don’t recall.

QUESTION: Do you remember how many of them you used?

ANSWER: A couple.

QUESTION: And how about Dean?

ANSWER: I only saw him use a couple, you know, when we took them together.

QUESTION: Do you remember how many trips you took on acid?

ANSWER: Altogether?

QUESTION: Yes — no, no; in San Francisco.

ANSWER: A couple, I believe.

QUESTION: Do you know, Charles, what the normal dose, if there is a normal dose, for LSD is?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Calls for a conclusion, your Honor,

THE COURT: Well, suppose you confine it to him.

THE WITNESS: All I know is I have taken — this is what I was told, anyway, that some of them were 500’s and some of them were 2,000’s.

QUESTION BY MR. BUBRICK: 500 what, if you know?.

ANSWER: I don’t know — little measurements, I guess. I don’t know what they were.

QUESTION: Which of the two is the largest?

ANSWER: The 2,000.

QUESTION: Were these drugs that you got by prescription?

ANSWER: No, no prescription ever.

QUESTION: You don’t know who made them, do you?

ANSWER: At first when I was out back to the ranch —

QUESTION: No; we are talking about the drugs you got up there in San Francisco.

ANSWER: Oh, in San Francisco.

QUESTION: Yes.

ANSWER: Well, I wasn’t talking about 500 and 2,000 then.

QUESTION: All right. Maybe I confused you. Do you know the size of the tablets that you took in San Francisco?

ANSWER: I know the guy gave Dean a bag of yellow powder and then some individual caps that stuck together.

THE COURT: You mean gelatin capsules?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

QUESTION BY MR. BUBRICK: Do you remember which of the two you took? The bulk powder or the capsules?

ANSWER: I took after it had been put in the capsules.

QUESTION: I take it you know where that came from.

ANSWER: It came from a friend of Dean’s.

QUESTION: It had no labels on it or anything of that nature?

ANSWER: No, none at all.

QUESTION: After you left San Francisco on these trips that you have talked about, did you come directly back to the Los Angeles area?

ANSWER: Yes, we did.

QUESTION: And where did you so when you arrived in the Los Angeles area?

ANSWER: We saw Charlie riding around one motorcycle and he led us up to a place where Dennis Wilson had moved, not the old place, but a new place on the in Malibu.

QUESTION: Now, can you fix the time of the month for us, Charlie?

ANSWER: l believe that was around in September.

QUESTION: 1960

ANSWER: ’68.

QUESTION: Did you go to Dennis Wilson’s beach house then?

ANSWER: Yes, we did.

QUESTION: Did you still have Terry Melcher’s car?

ANSWER: Yes we did.

QUESTION: And was Dean still driving that?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: What happened, if anything, at the beach house?

ANSWER: I remember we drove the car up there and spent one night at Dennis’ place there and then Dennis suggested that — I think he was kind of mad at Dean or something because of something that happened in the old house, something with Dean and one of the girls in the old house, I believe, and so Dean really didn’t want to stay with him and he suggested we go out and stay with Manson out at the ranch.

QUESTION: Did you do that?

ANSWER: Yes, we did.

QUESTION: When, if you remember?

ANSWER: Sometime still in September there, about a day or two after we got back from up north.

QUESTION: Did you go out to the Spahn Ranch?

ANSWER: Yes, we.

QUESTION: Did you still have the car?

ANSWER: No. We left it at Dennis’ house. We were told to leave it at Dennis’ house and that Terry would pick it up.

QUESTION: Is that the last you saw of that particular car at that time?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How did you get over to the ranch, if you remember

ANSWER: I believe we hitch-hiked.

QUESTION: Did you have anything with you other than what you were wearing?

ANSWER: No, that was all.

QUESTION: Do you remember how you were dressed?

ANSWER: No, I don’t.

QUESTION: When you got to the ranch, what happened on your first day, on the day of your arrival?

ANSWER: I know Charlie was living in a tent and some of the girls and people were living up at the ranch part and Charlie moved out of the tent and told Dean and l that we could live in the tent.

QUESTION: Where was the tent with respect to the main structures on the ranch?

ANSWER: The tent was between the farm have and the main branch part up a creek a ways.

QUESTION: I think we have seen some pictures of the ranch that was identified as a kitchen, the part that you ate in, as a kitchen or the saloon.

ANSWER: Yes. It was about half a mile from there.

QUESTION: Did you and Dean then live in the tent?

ANSWER: For a couple of weeks.

QUESTION: What, if anything, were you doing on the ranch while you lived there at this time?

ANSWER: Charlie was coming around us all the time and started talking to us and he would bring his guitar up to the tent and bring some girls with him and he would sit around and play music and I knew he had marijuana. We smoked marijuana and somewhere in that period right there we started taking acid.

QUESTION: Well, were your acid ingestions, that is the taking of acid, something that you did alone or while as a member of the group?

ANSWER: It was always as a member of the group or when Charlie would give it to me by myself or something.

QUESTION: Did you do anything else while you and Dean were in the tent?

ANSWER: Yes, he, Charlie, asked me to build a house for him.

QUESTION: Did you do that?

ANSWER: I built a house for him.

QUESTION: What sort of house did you build?

ANSWER: It was just a house, you know, just a little house called the “in case house.”

QUESTION: Like in case you have to go somewhere?

ANSWER: In case that was the only place to go.

QUESTION: Do you remember when you built this house, Charles?

ANSWER: It was still right there, started on it I know when I was living in the tent, in that first two-week period, and I built on it until December.

QUESTION: You worked on it that long?

ANSWER: Uh-huh, all the time I was there the first time.

QUESTION: Now, you started to tell us about Manson coming to the tent with his guitar and the girls; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s right.

QUESTION: And was there some singing that was done at the time?

ANSWER: Yes, a lot of singing then, at that time.

QUESTION: Was there any preaching being done at the time?

ANSWER: Well, this is kind of how Manson would, I guess you could say, preach. This is how he would put his message over to you; and this is how, also, he could look at a person and be able to tell you what you are thinking about, you know, and then you would see that he could tell you what you were thinking about and it would kind of have a big effect on your mind when you didn’t even tell him what you were thinking about, and this is what he would sing in his songs; and you’d be listening to him and you could hear your thoughts coming out in his songs.

QUESTION: Well, when he sang, was there any response from the listeners?

ANSWER: Yes, at that time the girls would all sing with him and, like Dean and I was new and we was just kind of sitting there watching; and that’s about it.

QUESTION: Was any acid being used or any other drugs being used at this time?

ANSWER: That’s when we first started taking, that I started taking acid, I guess, real heavily there at the tent and also in the back ranchhouse we lived in.

QUESTION: Did you, aside from working on the building, was there anything else that you did at the ranch?

ANSWER: I was the mechanic, too. When George, the old man —

QUESTION: Mr. Spahn?

ANSWER: Yes, he lived at the ranch — he would tell Charlie what he wanted done and Charlie would come and tell me what to work on that day.

QUESTION: How frequently would you have these singing sessions —

ANSWER: Every night.

QUESTION: — or music sessions?

ANSWER: Every night and sometimes in the afternoon and night; sometimes all day and sometimes in the morning, just any time everybody got together.

QUESTION: Who decided when everybody got together?

ANSWER: Charlie.

QUESTION: Manson?

ANSWER: Manson.

QUESTION: And who led these singing sessions?

ANSWER: Charlie.

QUESTION: Did anybody other than Charlie Manson do any singing or chanting?

ANSWER: No, just when the group kind of sung together, you know.

QUESTION: And aside from singing and chanting, did he ever discuss philosophy with the group?

ANSWER: Yes, this was done every night, too.

QUESTION: What would he tell you, if you remember? Well, during this first period I was there I know he was always talking about bringing out your inhibitions, I believe; you bring out all the stuff that — especially on acid, he would — we’d all be on acid or something and he would throw all your faults up in front of you, and that’s the way he’d pull them out of you. He’d pull the thoughts out of your head and that wouldn’t be there any more.

QUESTION: Is this the reaction you got to Mr. Manson?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How often would you use acid while you were at the ranch during this period of time?

ANSWER: Anywhere from one, two or three times a week , I’d say.

QUESTION: And who supplied it when you used it?

ANSWER: Most of the time when it came, the girls — like Charlie used to say that they were the power, you know, the power to get new guys and power to run the whole thing. He used to say they had all the power and they would be out hitchhiking and they’d bring home a new guy or something, and pretty soon he’d be coming back with acid and this is kind of how acid came into the ranch, is by people just bringing it, you know.

QUESTION: Well, when you first started to live at the ranch, were there any drugs other than acid which were available?

ANSWER: All different kinds of drugs: Acid, mescaline, psilocybin, and the THC, and STP, stuff like that; all psychedelic drugs, I guess you’d say.

QUESTION: Were the drugs that you have just enumerated drugs that Manson usually kept under his control?

ANSWER: Yes, it would always be in a Baggie and it would be under his control or the girls’ control, and the girls’ control and his control was the same control. so he would just ask one of the girls to go and put the acid away and then when he wanted it, he’d ask the girls to bring it to him.

QUESTION: Could a person who wanted acid just go over and take some on their own, without permission from Mr. Manson?

ANSWER: Nobody ever knew where the Baggie was. It was under his control all the time.

THE COURT: Do you know what a stash is?

ANSWER: Yeah, that’s what it was; it was a stash.

QUESTION: Do you know what speed is, Charles?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: What is it?

ANSWER: It is a white powder that gets you to speeding.

QUESTION: Were you using speed at this time?

ANSWER: Not at that time, No.

QUESTION: What feelings, if any, did you develop about Manson during the period of time that you were talking about, between September through December, or while you were working on the house?

ANSWER: It was just — I looked on him as kind of a supreme being, I guess you’d say, like I said before, that could see all my thoughts that were in my head; and the longer I was around him, the more of these thoughts I didn’t have anymore.

QUESTION: Were you staying in touch with your family during this time?

THE COURT: That is your own family, not Manson.

MR. BUBRICK: Yes. Your own family, your mother and father?

ANSWER: Not during that time, no.

QUESTION: Were you aware of the fact that you were changing in some respect?

ANSWER: I was aware of it, but I was losing — losing from what I had, it was going out of me, and that’s why I left in December.

QUESTION: What did you feel you were losing when you left in December?

ANSWER: I was losing my — myself, my individual thinking, like I was becoming Charles Manson and I was becoming the girls. I remember we could look into each other’s face and it would be the same face; my face would be Manson’s and the girls’ faces would be Manson’s, and just have one face.

QUESTION: Was this something that Manson preached?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did it go by any particular name?

ANSWER: Not that I can recall right now.

QUESTION: Did you talk about oneness?

ANSWER: Yes. That is what it was, yes. It wasn’t really a name. That is just what it was, it was all being the same person.

QUESTION: Did you ever hear of helter skelter at any time while you were with the family?

ANSWER: Yes, later on.

QUESTION: Later on. That is what I want to get.

Did you ever hear during this period between September and December what you later on knew was helter skelter?

ANSWER: No. It was just all kind of a love thing up until this time and it was just — I know his philosophy was you have to get rid of all of your thoughts before you could love.

QUESTION: Did you ever discuss with Manson this thing that you refer to as love? Was it some physical or psychological or mental thing?

ANSWER: It was all of them. It was all of them; Mental and spiritual and physical and every way, you know, just one big love.

QUESTION: This is what Manson told you about love?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Could one do just what he wanted to do while living with the family during this period?

ANSWER: Well, you had to do what everybody else was doing. I mean you could always leave but there just wasn’t any way of leaving, it seemed like. It seemed like it was just a magnetic pull between Manson and everybody there and anybody that would get around the people too, they would just kind of be sucked in right with it.

QUESTION: Do you have any idea of how many people were living in the family about this time, Charlie?

ANSWER: Probably around 30 then.

QUESTION: And how did they break down in terms of male and female?

ANSWER: Probably about six or seven males and the rest were females.

QUESTION: Do you know Paul Watkins?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Brooks Poston?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Were they at the ranch at this time?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember who else was there among the fellows?

ANSWER: Steve Grogan and a guy by the name of T.J. and another guy that was real close to Paul but I can’t remember his name. That is about all I recall.

QUESTION: Can you give us any idea, Charles, of the number of times you might have used LSD in this period between September and December that you are referring to?

ANSWER: I have no idea really. I know it was — like I say — one, two, three times a week and maybe more than that some weeks.

QUESTION: And then you have enumerated other drugs that you used; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And would you use those drugs in conjunction, among with LSD, or independent of the LSD?

ANSWER: Oh, we would be sitting around in a circle-like when Charlie would get us together and then he would come around with the baggie and say, “This is what you need,” you know, “You take this, this, and this,” and then he would go to the next person and give them this, and this and that is the way he would do it.

QUESTION: He would determine the type of drug and the quantity that you got; was that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Did Manson himself use much by way of drugs?

ANSWER: I never did see him take a lot of drugs but I always thought he was on drugs, you know, a lot of times.

QUESTION: Was he talking about right and wrong at this time?

ANSWER: Well, that is what was coming out like if you would take your thoughts away everything would become perfect. There was no wrong. Everything was right.

QUESTION: How about good and bad? Did he talk about that?

ANSWER: There wasn’t any bad. Everything was good.

QUESTION: How about death?

ANSWER: He would always say you had to die, you know, and at first I didn’t know what he was talking about, whether he was talking about mentally or physically or how he was talking about because I never had heard of dying in this way, you know, but I came to find out he was talking about, to me anyway, he was talking about mental death.

QUESTION: What was your major in college? What were you trying to do in college?

ANSWER: I was a business major.

QUESTION: Take any courses in philosophy?

ANSWER: No. I had one course, that is all, a beginning course. I believe just something you had to take for a business major.

QUESTION: Were you much concerned with philosophy in college?

ANSWER: No, I really didn’t even know what it was.

QUESTION: Did you have any idea of philosophy when you joined the family?

ANSWER: Did I have any philosophy?

QUESTION: Yes.

ANSWER: No, I had nothing.

QUESTION: Was the doctrine preached by Moorehouse similar to what Manson was telling you?

ANSWER: Yes, it was the same because Charlie had got Moorehouse onto acid, and onto this same thing.

QUESTION: Was Moorehouse living at the ranch during this period between September and December?

ANSWER: He left after about two weeks when he moved out of the tent. He went on down the road.

QUESTION: When was that, if you can tell us?

ANSWER: I really don’t know. I just know it was about two weeks after we got there. It was around September of ’68.

QUESTION: Did Moorehouse tell you why he was leaving?

ANSWER: Well, I know that Charlie — I heard something to the effect that Charlie didn’t want older men around the ranch.

QUESTION: Did you ever see Dean around the ranch after he left on this occasion?

ANSWER: I believe only one time.

QUESTION: When was that?

ANSWER: I don’t know if it was before or after. I don’t know.

QUESTION: Now, you have used the December date as a frame of reference about working on the house and in leaving.

What happened in December?

ANSWER: I had to take an Army physical the first part of December there, so I was at a telephone, I remember, at a friend’s house, at a friend of the family’s house, in Topanga Canyon and I called up Dave and this is when I called Dave and told him that I was kind of losing myself.

QUESTION: Dave Neale?

ANSWER: Yes; and this is when I asked if I could come and stay with him.

QUESTION: Did you leave?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Do you remember where Dave was living at this time?

ANSWER: He was living in the Pasadena like area.

QUESTION: With whom?

ANSWER: With his brother.

QUESTION: Jay?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Did you move in with them?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Incidentally, was it difficult to leave the ranch?

ANSWER: Yes, it was. Like I —

QUESTION: No, I don’t mean, you know, psychologically. I mean was it difficult to just walk off the property, physically, just move, walk away from it?

ANSWER: Well, we had been up north on — Charlie had sent us up north to see a man called the Candy Man and going to bring back some candy. So we went up north and Charlie wasn’t with us then you know, like he had told us to go up there and see about the candy and so a couple of guys and I and some of the girls went up north in a school bus. When we got back down from north this is when I called Dave.

QUESTION: Did you call him from the area of the ranch?

ANSWER: No, I called him from the beach area around Topanga Canyon.

QUESTION: Then you never went back to the ranch, is that correct?

ANSWER: I did on one occasion.

QUESTION: No, I mean coming back from this northern trip that you have told us about.

ANSWER: I went to live at Dave’s; then something drew me back to Manson. Then I went back to Dave’s again.

QUESTION: But when you called Dave in the latter part of November or early December, you went out and stayed with him in Pasadena, is that correct?

ANSWER: Right.

QUESTION: How long did you stay with him then?

ANSWER: I stayed with him until he went into the Army.

QUESTION: When was that, if you remember?

ANSWER: Somewhere the first of December.

QUESTION: And after he was gone did you continue to live with Jay?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Same apartment in Pasadena?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How long did you stay?

ANSWER: On and off, I’d say about a month and a half.

QUESTION: Did you eventually get back to the family; that is, to Manson and the ranch?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: How did this happen?

ANSWER: Well, that was about — I called him up one day and said — I just called up the ranch, you know, and —

QUESTION: Do you know why?

ANSWER: Well, like I said, there was kind of a power that was just – pulling me back, a magnetic thing between my mind and their mind that just pulled me back, I don’t know why.

QUESTION: All right, you called Manson on the phone?

ANSWER: I called the ranch on the phone.

QUESTION: Okay.

ANSWER: Manson convinced me to come back out and just see them, you know, just see them.

QUESTION: Did you do that?

ANSWER: Yes, I went out.

QUESTION: And when was this?

ANSWER: That was about some time in February.

QUESTION: 1969?

ANSWER: Yes, February or March, somewhere like that.

QUESTION: Did you go back out to the ranch then?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Did you stay then?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Where did you live on the ranch, or where did you move into when you got back to the ranch?

ANSWER: We were just staying all over the ranch, kind of, all over the ranch part there.

QUESTION: Do you have any idea how many people were at the ranch when you got back in February or March?

ANSWER: I’d say around 30, again.

QUESTION: And how many men, if you remember?

ANSWER: There were a few more men then.

QUESTION: And what did you do if anything? What was your work assignment?

ANSWER: Well, at that time he had started a club, a little club or something there at the ranch, and also Charlie had got a couple of dune buggies; and so he kind of got me to working on the dune buggies.

QUESTION: Did he still preach or philosophize with you?

ANSWER: It was the same, except he had a different kind — his philosophy had changed.

QUESTION: What was he talking about now?

ANSWER: Now, he was talking about the Beatles all the time and Helter-skelter and the revolution coming down, and singing about it and talking about the end of the world coming and about the bottomless pit out on the desert, and all of these songs that the Beatles had, someway, he was bringing all them out, too, to back his philosophy, I guess you’d call it.

QUESTION: Had you ever listened to the Beatles’ music prior to this time?

ANSWER: Yes, on a few occasions, yes.

QUESTION: Were they played at the ranch?

ANSWER: Yes, in the saloon where the club was.

QUESTION: Had they been played when you were first there between September and December?

ANSWER: Not those records, no.

QUESTION: Was there much talk about the Beatles when you were first there between September and December?

ANSWER: No, none at all.

QUESTION: Then, how regularly would this helter-skelter philosophy of his be talked about

ANSWER: Every night and all day long.

QUESTION: Were drugs being used at the same time?

ANSWER: Yes, a lot of real heavy physical and mental acid, you know.

QUESTION: I’m sorry, I didn’t hear that,.

ANSWER: A lot of heavy physical acid and mental acid, too.

QUESTION: What was mental acid?

ANSWER: Well, that’s the kind that would — well, both of it did the same, except one of it drew your body, drew stuff out of your mind; and the other at the same time would be drawing your body.

QUESTION: Did you ever use belladonna while you were at the ranch, Charles?

ANSWER: Yes, I used it in April of ’69.

QUESTION: Do you remember how you first got it?

ANSWER: Paul Watkins got some from around the ranch there and Brenda cooked it up

QUESTION: What form was it in when you used it?

ANSWER: A root form.

QUESTION: Had you ever seen anybody eating it in root form?

ANSWER: No, I hadn’t. I never had seen it before.

QUESTION: Did you know what belladonna was used for?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t even know it would have any effect on you, I had never even heard of it before this.

QUESTION: What happened when you took it?

ANSWER: I took it on the ranch and I started hitchhiking down to this motorcycle shop and by the time I got down there I was crawling on the ground.

QUESTION: Do you remember anything else that happened on that occasion?

ANSWER: Yeah, I remember having cotton mouth so bad that I couldn’t speak there at first; and then I got this little scooter thing out, a little hill climber, hill climber motorcycle out of the shop, and started toward the ranch with it and I blacked out going down.

QUESTION: Where were you when you came to?

ANSWER: I was in the back seat of somebody’s car

QUESTION: Do you remember anything else about that experience?

ANSWER: The police were shaking me and waking me up.

QUESTION: Did they take you off to jail?

ANSWER: They carried me off, one of them had me under both sides of my arm and they were dragging me.

QUESTION: Did anything happen to you in jail that you remember?

ANSWER: I had a fight

QUESTION: Do you know why?

ANSWER: Three guys jumped on me and they said I was crazy, and I was insane; that’s why they beat me up.

QUESTION: Did you get any injury in that fight?

ANSWER: I cut — they cut my eye; one of them cut up my eye pretty bad. I had to have it sewed up.

QUESTION: Do you remember what jail you were in when this occurred?

ANSWER: I found out later it was Van Nuys.

QUESTION: And do you remember what month this was?

ANSWER: April, I believe.

QUESTION: Do you have any idea what the belladonna that was being brewed up by Paul Watkins and Brenda was to be used for?

ANSWER: I know after that I heard that Charlie kept talking about putting it in the water tanks of this city.

QUESTION: Was that in connection with helter-skelter, if you know?

ANSWER: Something in that — something to do with it.

QUESTION: Did Manson say anything more about helter-skelter during this period of time?

ANSWER: That’s all that was talked about during this whole period of time, during the whole period of time it was helter-skelter; and like the more acid we took, the more helter-skelter it would be.

QUESTION: Well, did he say when it was going to start?

ANSWER: Any second.

QUESTION: Is that what he would say?

ANSWER: Uh-huh.

QUESTION: Did he tell you what the dune buggies were to be used for?

ANSWER: Yeah, after helter-skelter came down, that’s how we’d get out of the city.

QUESTION: Did you believe in helter-skelter?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Did you believe in revolution?

ANSWER: Very much so.

QUESTION: How about the bottomless pit?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Was there any portion of the Manson philosophy that you disagreed with?

ANSWER: No, I agreed with it all.

QUESTION: Did he tell you what you would have to do during helter-skelter

ANSWER: No, it was just that I remember we were the only ones that were going to be saved, because we didn’t have any fear.

QUESTION: Was fear a big thing with Manson?

ANSWER: Yes, it was.

QUESTION: Did he talk about it a lot?

ANSWER: All the time. This is what the acid would do, and plus Manson’s philosophy

QUESTION: What did he say about fear?

ANSWER: He said that we had already experienced — we were experiencing now all the fear that you could have, and that he would take us on wild dune buggy trips and wild car trips while we were on acid; and the acid and his philosophy and him scaring us all, with the animals and stuff, would pull out all our fear until we had no fear at all; and then he’d talk about the people down in the city, how they were afraid to die and that we had already experienced death and that we were experiencing death at the time, and pretty soon we were dead mentally.

QUESTION: Were there any demonstrations by Manson during these sessions where death was talked about?

ANSWER: He would always make out like he had – somebody was sitting in a chair on the other side of the room, and some person that had a lot of fear, like one of the persons down the hill or something, and he would pretend like — like we were just sitting there with no fear and we could just see the fear in this imaginary person that was sitting there, and he would be talking to them and telling them how not to be so scared or anything and don’t worry and everything would be alright, all he wanted was for you to sign all their possessions to him and after they’d do this he’d just scare them to death.

QUESTION: Did he use animals in demonstrating fear?

ANSWER: Yes. He would bring animals into the room and he would take an animal, like a cat, for instance, and he would start throwing it up in the air and squeezing it and pulling on it and the cat was crying at first, I remember, and then when he got through with it, the cat didn’t even — never would make a noise again and it was still walking around alive.

QUESTION: Did he give the cat any drugs or anything of that nature, if you know

ANSWER: No, no drugs at all. He would do us the same way. He would take us into his arms, on acid trips, and he called it the movement or the flow, or something and he would take all our stiffness out of our body, until we would just float right with him.

QUESTION: How would he do that?

ANSWER: I don’t know how he would do it. He just put his arms around you and take you and caress you and start moving you in all different directions and taking all of your fear out of you and all you are and the rest that you had in you out of you, until there wasn’t anything, until you and him were one body.

QUESTION: You would move when he moved?

ANSWER: It was the same movement, the same body. There was no push or there was no pull.

QUESTION: If you would lift your arm up, it would just drop down immediately?

ANSWER: Yes, because he would take it and he could move you in any direction you wanted to move.

QUESTION: And you didn’t resist; is that correct?

ANSWER: There was no push or no pull, no resistance, just like one, being one body.

QUESTION: I think you told us you started to use — you used belladonna for the first time in April of ’69; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Did you use it again while you were at the ranch?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: How often would you use it?

ANSWER: Not very often. About once a month or a little over.

QUESTION: What effect would it have on you when you use it?

ANSWER: About the same effect all the time.

QUESTION: What was that?

ANSWER: Well, the blackout and then waking up and having hallucinations and being completely away from reality and talking to space people that would come down out of the sky and you could see their space ships.

QUESTION: Did you ever do that? Talk to space people?

ANSWER: Yes, uh-huh.

QUESTION: Where, do you remember?

ANSWER: Well, several times out at the ranch and one time in jail the first time.

QUESTION: Was that what led to the fight in jail?

ANSWER: That was some of the things because I was making strange noises back at the space people.

QUESTION: How long would a trip on belladonna last?

ANSWER: It would depend on if you got woken up. If somebody woke you up, you would start having a lot of hallucinations. I know it took about 18 hours before you could walk around on your own with it and then if you took speed with it then you could move around.

QUESTION: Did you ever take belladonna and speed at the same time?

ANSWER: Yes. That was one of the things to take belladonna and then when you woke up to get your energy going and to — you would have a lot of energy from the belladonna and the belladonna would give you so much energy that after you woke up, it would give you so much energy that you just wouldn’t know what to do. You would be bright red, kind of red, and your whole body would be dehydrated to where you wouldn’t be anything but muscles and bones.

QUESTION: When you say the body was bright red, did you actually turn red or did you imagine that you were red?

ANSWER: Well, I looked red from my eyes. I don’t know how I looked to other people.

QUESTION: Did you ever look at yourself in the mirror under belladonna?

ANSWER: No, not that I can recall.

QUESTION: I think you told us that when you were there, when you were at the ranch between September and December, you used LSD and no speed; is that correct

ANSWER: Used what?

QUESTION: You didn’t use any speed between September and December of 1968?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: When you got back in this period you are talking about, February or March of 1969, was speed available at the ranch?

ANSWER: It started being available in a little tablet, Charlie used to give it to us all the time, all the guys and some of the girls too, to be able to stay up and work on the dune buggies.

QUESTION: Do you remember what the tablets looked like?

ANSWER: It was a round tablet with a cross in it and then we run out of those and then he had a baggie, a white powder that was methedrine.

QUESTION: How would you use methedrine?

ANSWER: Sniff it.

QUESTION: Who kept that supply? That is methedrine.

ANSWER: The girls would keep all of the supplies.

QUESTION: Did you ever have any of your own?

ANSWER: I knew where the speed was but I didn’t take any unless Charlie or the girls would bring it to me to take to work on the dune buggies.

QUESTION: Is that what you were doing primarily during this period of time? Working on dune buggies?

ANSWER: Yes, working on dune buggies. Eventually I got so high and out of control on speed that I didn’t work on any dune buggies any more that much.

QUESTION: What did the girls do in this period of time?

ANSWER: The girls, I know the girls that were around me so I could work on the dune buggies more. They would go after screw drivers and parts and wash parts off to help me out so I wouldn’t have to do that.

QUESTION: Were there other chores being performed by the girls?

ANSWER: They would cook and do the things that girls did on dune buggies.

QUESTION: What did the girls do on dune buggies?

ANSWER: They put a lot of fur on Charlie’s dune buggy.

QUESTION: How about garbage runs? Were there any things like that going on?

ANSWER: Yes. They went on garbage runs everyday.

QUESTION: What was the purpose of that?

ANSWER: To go behind grocery stores and get the vegetables and fruits and anything that they could find to eat.

QUESTION: Is that what you lived on at the ranch?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: What did that mean?

ANSWER: That meant to, that is another way Charlie would take the fear out of you. He would take you out at night and just walk up and down the beach and get close to people’s houses and stuff, you know, to experience the fear of being around things.

QUESTION: Did you ever go into a house and take anything while you were with Manson?

ANSWER: No. I did not.

QUESTION: Did the girls do that, if you know?

ANSWER: I don’t know.

QUESTION: Were there credit cards around the ranch?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you know where they came from?

ANSWER: I know the girls on two or three times I can remember, the girls went out and got credit cards. I remember one time or two times they were hitch-hiking and the guy would take them home with him and they would end up leaving with his credit cards.

QUESTION: Then would you use them around the ranch?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Were all the girls around the ranch pretty much of the same order; that is, would they all do pretty much the same thing?

ANSWER: Pretty much the same thing.

QUESTION: Was there any one girl who seemed to be a little closer to Manson than anybody else?

ANSWER: Brenda, seemed like she was always pretty close to Manson.

QUESTION: Anybody else that you can think of that was close to Manson?

ANSWER: I don’t know — all of them was, they were all, you know, his girls. You know, that was understood, that they were his, you know.

QUESTION: Well, was there any one girl that gave any more orders than any other girl, if any of them did?

MR. KAY: Well, that assumes a fact not in evidence, that any of them gave orders.

MR. BUBRICK: I said if any of them did, in his presence.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

THE WITNESS: What is the question, again?

MR. BUBRICK: Would you read it back, please Mr. Reporter?

(Record read.)

ANSWER: I don’t say any orders were given to any girls it would have been from — by any girls, it would have been from Brenda or Squeaky or Sadie.

MR. BUBRICK: Were they the oldest members of the family, as far as you know?

ANSWER: Yes, nearly all of the girls were — was all members older than me, had been there a lot longer than I had.

QUESTION: What sort of a person was Sadie?

ANSWER: Her and Charlie were always — Charlie was – her and Charlie was always kind of having trouble together because she would kind of tell people what to do. She was kind of an authoritative like girl.

QUESTION: Did Charlie disapprove of that?

ANSWER: Yes, he did.

QUESTION: And how did he demonstrate that disapproval?

ANSWER: He’d beat her up in front of everybody.

QUESTION: Did you see him do that to any of the other girls?

ANSWER: I saw him beat on some of the other girls, yes.

QUESTION: About the same time?

ANSWER: Well, through the periods I was there, all the time, I guess.

QUESTION: Did you ever meet Linda Kasabian?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Do you remember when?

ANSWER: Around July ’69.

QUESTION: Do you remember when you first met her?

ANSWER: Her and Gypsy were walking up to the ranch one afternoon and I was out standing on the grounds of the ranch and they came walking up to me.

QUESTION: Were you introduced to her?

ANSWER: Yes, her and her little girl.

QUESTION: Did Linda have a baby with her?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you talk with her for some while?

ANSWER: No, they just kind of passed by me — was introduced to her, and then they went on about their business, you know.

QUESTION: Did you see her anymore that first day?

ANSWER: Yes, I was standing at the end of the boardwalk and she came walking up.

QUESTION: Did she still have the baby with her?

ANSWER: No, she didn’t.

QUESTION: About what time of the day or night was it when you met her this way?

ANSWER: I know it was –the sun was still up.

QUESTION: I take it you didn’t have watches out there, is that right?

ANSWER: No watches or nothing like that.

QUESTION: What happened between you and Linda?

ANSWER: I know I put my arms around her and we went into a back shack and made love.

QUESTION: How long did that take?

ANSWER: I don’t have any idea. I know that some girl came and got us because it was time to eat, time for everybody to eat and Charlie was getting everybody together, you know, to eat.

QUESTION: Where did you eat on that occasion, if you remember?

ANSWER: I don’t remember.

QUESTION: Did you talk with Linda at all that evening?

ANSWER: Yes I did.

QUESTION: What did you talk about, if you remember?

ANSWER: Well, she was interested in the family.

QUESTION: What did she ask you?

ANSWER: I remember the main question she asked me was how did we live and how did we get our money, things like that; just how we got along, you know.

QUESTION: Did you tell her?

ANSWER: Yeah, I told her that everybody who came to the ranch gave up all their money and possessions and everything.

QUESTION: Do you know of your own knowledge whether Linda ever brought money back to the ranch?

ANSWER: Yes, about $5,000.

QUESTION: Did you send her for it?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you tell her to get it?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Were you around when she brought it?

ANSWER: I saw it, but I didn’t — I saw the money there but I wasn’t around when she came back with it.

QUESTION: Do you know who she gave it to?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: It wasn’t to you, was it?

ANSWER: No, it was not.

QUESTION: Do you remember what you continued to do during the month of July around the ranch?

ANSWER: I know I was taking a lot of speed then.

QUESTION: Anything else?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Any other kind of drug?

ANSWER: LSD.

QUESTION: Was Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston still there?

ANSWER: No, sir, they were not.

QUESTION: When did they leave?

ANSWER: I believe they left in May.

QUESTION: Do you recall, Charles, whether drugs became more or less frequent after Brooks and Paul left?

ANSWER: A lot more.

QUESTION: About how many men were left after Brooks and Paul left?

ANSWER: About three, I guess, or four of the ones that had been there for a while.

QUESTION: You were there and who else was there with you?

ANSWER: Steve Grogan and Bruce Davis.

QUESTION: How did Manson and Bruce get along?

ANSWER: Bruce was always real loud, loud talking, and he was just running around kind of trying to be Charlie all the time and putting out — all he would do is just go around preaching Charlie’s philosophy all the time, you know. He was trying to be Charlie.

QUESTION: How about Steve?

ANSWER: Everybody was, you know, preaching his philosophy except Steve didn’t have the — you know, he was real quiet. He didn’t have that kind of thing.

THE COURT: Would this be a good time to have our afternoon recess?

MR. BUBRICK: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will have our afternoon recess at this time. Once more again please heed the admonition heretofore given.

(Recess.)

THE COURT: People against Watson.

MR. BUBRICK: Mr. Watson, I think you told us before the break that in the period of time between the leaving of Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston and this July period that we are talking about, you increased your LSD; is that correct?

ANSWER: Correct.

QUESTION: What effect was the LSD having on you, if any at all?

ANSWER: Well, the LSD, this drew up fear. The LSD made me more aware, hearing and seeing and taste and smell, just all your senses became more aware; and you became so aware that you were living in fear and getting so used to living in fear, with all the awareness of things around you you were more like an animal; and until I experienced so much fear that there wasn’t any fear any more.

QUESTION: The end result was that you became fearless; is that correct?

ANSWER: Correct.

QUESTION: Did Manson talk about fear a great deal?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Was that part of his philosophy?

ANSWER: Yes, continuously, that part of it; and the acid, too, then and Manson.

QUESTION: How about the subject of killing? Was that brought up by Manson?

ANSWER: There was no wrong. Everything was perfect. It was perfection, the flow and the oneness, and there was no mistake. Manson was a perfect being, to me more like Christ and we were totally him then.

QUESTION: Did you ever doubt or dispute anything he told you?

ANSWER: No, none at all. Everything was perfect.

QUESTION: Did he make any particular comments about killing?

ANSWER: Yes, everything was perfect. There wasn’t nothing that was wrong. There was no thought of any wrong at all. There was no thought in our heads. All the thought was gone.

QUESTION: Did he use the word “Pig”?

ANSWER: Not that much but he always talked about the people, the people down the hill and how much fear they had and how we had already experienced all the fear there was, and had no thought any more, and that all of those people down there were dead already because they had so much fear, and there was no way for them to escape helter-skelter when it came down.

QUESTION: Was he talking more about helter-skelter during this period?

ANSWER: Yes. The helter-skelter, of confusion of all the people would be in when it did come down, the fear that they would have. They would just be running into each other in cars, trying to get away from all the fears that they hadn’t experienced yet and we didn’t have any fear. That is why we were going to get away.

QUESTION: I take it you remember the day of August 9, 1969?

ANSWER: Yes.

MR. BUBRICK: August the 8th, August the 8th running into the 9th. Do you remember August the 8th?

ANSWER: Yes, the morning. I remember all that night before on the 8th. I was up all night on speed and I ended up at the waterfall. Where Charlie and the girls and I believe some babies were over there, a couple of babies that at the ranch, and the younger people were at the waterfall and there was belladonna hanging around that they had pulled up all around the waterfall and I took some belladonna that morning .

QUESTION: The root form?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember how big a piece you took?

ANSWER: About the size I always took, about an inch or three-quarters of an inch long and about that big around or so —

THE COURT: An inch in diameter?

ANSWER: About an inch; three quarters of an inch or an inch, something like that, not a large piece.

MR. BUBRICK: That was in the area of the waterfall?

ANSWER: Yes, that was at the camp at the waterfall.

QUESTION: What did you do after, after taking the belladonna?

ANSWER: Walked over to the ranch.

QUESTION: How far a walk was that?

ANSWER: I’d say less than a mile.

QUESTION: What happened at the ranch?

ANSWER: I got over it and I remember seeing Sadie and Linda Kasabian, they had just got back from somewhere, I recall that.

QUESTION: Do you remember whether it was early in the morning or mid-morning or what?

ANSWER: It was real early in the morning, about the same time the sun was coming up, about sunrise, yeah.

QUESTION: How were they dressed when you saw them?

ANSWER: They were in black, all black.

QUESTION: Did you say anything to them?

ANSWER: Not that I can recall. I just — no, I heard something about conversations they had got some credit cards or something, that’s about all I heard.

QUESTION: What did you do that day, if you can remember?

ANSWER: I went in the shack down below the ranch and I was out all day on belladonna.

QUESTION: Do you remember what time you woke up?

ANSWER: At eating time, when it was time to eat, one of the girls came and woke me up and told me it was time for the family, like Charlie was pulling everybody together for the night meal or something.

QUESTION: Who decided when it was time to eat dinner?

ANSWER: Charlie did.

QUESTION: Did anybody eat before he did?

ANSWER: No, I remember one time somebody ate before he did and he got real mad, you know, or nobody ever went to sleep before he did or nobody ever got out of bed before he did. You know, it was everybody was doing everything at the same time, one person, that was Charlie.

QUESTION: When you were awakened in time for dinner, did you go to dinner?

ANSWER: Yes I did. I had a lot of energy but I didn’t have a lot of pep or something, so I took some speed to get me moving, you know.

QUESTION: Do you remember eating?

ANSWER: I didn’t eat that night.

QUESTION: Did you see Manson again that night?

ANSWER: I was sitting on the fireplace in the house where we ate and I don’t remember who was in the house, but I know he called me outside and told me to go up to the ranch front, so that’s what I did.

QUESTION: When you got to the ranch front, who else was there, if anybody?

ANSWER: I remember a girl walked out, one of the girls, and everybody was taking acid that night, and that’s what I was told, anyway, so I took some acid.

QUESTION: Who gave it to you, if you remember?

ANSWER: I can’t recall. I believe it was Squeaky, though I’m not for sure.

QUESTION: Did anything else occur that evening that you remember?

ANSWER: Yes, Charlie called me over behind the car, down at the far end of the ranch, and handed me a gun and a knife and he said for me to take the gun and the knife and to go up where Terry Melcher used to live and to kill everybody in the house, as gruesome as I could, or something to that effect; or, “Make sure everybody is dead, as gruesome as you can,” or something to that effect.

QUESTION: Did he tell you who was in the house?

ANSWER: I think he said something about movie stars but I’m not for sure. I believe he did, though, I recall something about movie stars. I recall something.

QUESTION: Did he say something about Terry Melcher living there?

ANSWER: No, he didn’t. He said where Terry Melcher used to live, I believe.

QUESTION: Who else was present at this conversation?

ANSWER: No one, just Manson and I.

QUESTION: And what happened after that conversation?

ANSWER: Well, he continued to tell me the things he wanted done.

QUESTION: Like what?

ANSWER: He said, “The bolt cutters are in the back of the car for you to cut the highline wires; then to go in and make sure everybody is dead as gruesome as you can”; and he said afterwards to wash off and to throw away the guns and the knives and the clothes; and then to come back to the ranch. Then he said something about writing on the walls, and we were walking over to the car that the girls were in and I said — the first words that I had spoken — and I said, “Now, what did you say?” or something to that effect. I wasn’t real clear on what was to be wrote on the walls or clear about the whole thing, really; and he said, “Don’t worry about anything, just make sure that everybody is dead and that it is done as gruesome as you can do it.”

QUESTION: What did you do then?

ANSWER: I got in the car.

QUESTION: Where?

ANSWER: In the back seat of the car.

QUESTION: Who was in the car?

ANSWER: Linda Kasabian.

QUESTION: Where was she, if you remember?

ANSWER: She was at the driver’s under the wheel.

QUESTION: Who else was in it?

ANSWER: Sadie and Katie.

QUESTION: You were in the back. Who else was in the back with you, if you remember?

ANSWER: It was either Katie or Sadie. I can’t recall to be that perfectly clear on who it was.

QUESTION: Did you see the bolt cutters in the car?

ANSWER: They were laying on the back floorboard of the car.

QUESTION: Did this car have a back seat?

ANSWER: No. There was all kinds of stuff on the floorboard and there wasn’t anything in the back seat but a bunch of bottles and stuff like that.

QUESTION: Do you remember what the bolt cutters looked like?

ANSWER: They were big and they were bright red.

QUESTION: How big?

ANSWER: About that long (indicating) or so.

QUESTION: Two feet? Your Honor, I have here what appear to be a pair of red bolt cutters. May they be marked W-4 for identification?

THE COURT: W-D.

MR. BUBRICK: W-D. I am sorry.

QUESTION: Will you look at the bolt cutters in front of you and tell me if you recognize those?

ANSWER: Yes. They are the bolt cutters.

QUESTION: Were they the bolt cutters in the car that night?

ANSWER: That is the kind.

THE COURT: It looks like it anyway?

ANSWER: Yes, right.

MR. BUBRICK: Incidentally this car that you were in was a yellow car, do you remember?

ANSWER: Yes. It was a yellow car.

QUESTION: Who did it belong to, if you remember?

ANSWER: I believe his name was John.

QUESTION: It was the car that you saw around the ranch?

ANSWER: It was, yes.

QUESTION: All right. Did you drive off from the ranch?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And was Linda driving?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: And you were in the back seat; is that correct?

ANSWER: Right.

QUESTION: Was there anything else in the car that you were aware of?

ANSWER: The only other thing that I was aware of is the gun and the knife that Charlie had given to me.

QUESTION: How about any items of clothing?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: And where was the car driven, if you remember?

ANSWER: It was driven up to the top of the hill and that is where Terry Melcher lived.

QUESTION: It was on Cielo Drive?

ANSWER: I didn’t see the street or anything. That is where we were, though.

QUESTION: Did you say anything while the car was being driven?

ANSWER: No. I was laying down in the back seat. My head was in the girl’s lap when I was laying down.

QUESTION: Could you hear any directions being given to Linda?

ANSWER: No. I couldn’t hear anything.

QUESTION: Do you recall the car coming to a stop, the car stopping somewhere on the hill?

ANSWER: Yes, it stopped.

QUESTION: Where? Do you remember?

ANSWER: It was by a telephone pole.

QUESTION: What happened at the pole?

ANSWER: I know the girl that I was in the lap with shook me and said I’m to cut the wires, so I knew, you know, Manson had told me that to cut the wires, so I just went straight up the pole, you know.

QUESTION: How did you get up the pole? Do you remember?

ANSWER: I can remember being on the pole, on the things that you climb on, your know. I was on those.

QUESTION: The pegs or the bars in the pole?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember how far off the ground the first one was?

ANSWER: No, I don’t.

QUESTION: Do you know how you got up there?

ANSWER: I can’t recall exactly how I did get up there.

QUESTION: When you got up on the pole were you carrying the bolt cutters?

ANSWER: No, I was not.

QUESTION: How did you get them?

ANSWER: Linda handed those to me.

QUESTION: Where was she in the car?

ANSWER: She was — the car I remember was parked right by the pole and she was in the driver’s thing, right outside the door, handed them up to me.

QUESTION: Did she get out of the car to do that?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And then you went up the pole, did you?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And you cut the wires?

ANSWER: I cut the first wire, all the wires that I could see.

QUESTION: Do you remember how many there were?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: Did you come down the pole?

ANSWER: I know I had to come down the pole but I actually don’t recall coming down the pole.

QUESTION: Do you remember whether you cut any other wires on the ground?

ANSWER: No. I did not cut any other wires.

QUESTION: Did you have any other cutting device other than the bolt cutter?

ANSWER: Just my knife, that is all, the knife that Charlie had gave me.

QUESTION: Did you have any pliers in your pocket or wire snips or anything of that nature?

ANSWER: No, nothing else like that.

QUESTION: And you used those, that bolt cutter, to cut those pole wires; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: You came back down the pole. Do you remember getting in the car?

ANSWER: No. The next thing that I can recall is walking back up a hill.

QUESTION: Do you remember where the car was parked when you started to walk back up the hill?

ANSWER: We walked up the hill. It was at the bottom of a hill.

QUESTION: Is that where the telephone pole was where the wires were cut?

ANSWER: No. The car was a long ways from the — a pretty good little walk back up the hill.

QUESTION: How did the car get from the pole where the wires were cut to where it was parked at the bottom of the hill?

ANSWER: It was drove to the bottom of the hill.

QUESTION: By whom?

ANSWER: I don’t know for sure who drove it.

QUESTION: Did you do it?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Then how many were walking back up the hill when you got out of the car?

ANSWER: There was four of us.

QUESTION: Do you remember what you were carrying?

ANSWER: I was carrying a gun and a knife.

QUESTION: Did you pass any buildings, any houses on the way up the hill?

ANSWER: Yeah, I believe there were houses on one side and on the other was hills and rocks and things like that.

QUESTION: How were you dressed?

ANSWER: I had on Jeans and a black shirt, I believe.

QUESTION: How about the girls?

ANSWER: They all looked kind of like I did.

QUESTION: In what respect?

ANSWER: The same kind of clothes kind of thing.

QUESTION: Do you remember how you were carrying the knife?

ANSWER: I had the knife in one hand and I had that gun in the other hand.

QUESTION: And were you carrying them exposed that way as you walked up the hill?

ANSWER: I was carrying them just the way they were given to me.

QUESTION: What sort of knife did you have, Charles, if you remember?

ANSWER: I know it didn’t have a handle on it; it was just a piece of metal.

QUESTION: Do you mean there was no wood on the part that you grasp?

ANSWER: Right, yeah; there wasn’t any, it was just a piece of metal.

QUESTION: Did it have anything wrapped around it?

ANSWER: No, not that I know of. I didn’t look that close.

QUESTION: Now, as you passed these houses and approached this house on Cielo Drive, Terry Melcher’s old house, were you aware of a gate?

ANSWER: No, we just walked right up to the fence and started over the fence; there wasn’t really — more of a gate, I don’t know.

QUESTION: Had you ever been to this house before?

ANSWER: Yes, I had.

QUESTION: On how many occasions?

ANSWER: I’d say three.

QUESTION: Do you remember how you got into the house — or, strike that. Do you remember how you got up the driveway on the other three occasions?

ANSWER: Yes, there’s a button outside the gate.

QUESTION: What do you do to the button?

ANSWER: You push the button and the gate swings open.

QUESTION: Did you do that on this night of August the 8th?

ANSWER: No, we did not.

QUESTION: Did anybody push the button, as far as you know?

ANSWER: Not as far as I know.

QUESTION: Why didn’t you do it, if you knew it was there?

ANSWER: There was no thought about a button, it was just the fence was there and we just went over the fence; there just wasn’t any thought about a button or anything like that.

QUESTION: How high was the fence?

ANSWER: It was hard to get over; I don’t know how high it was.

QUESTION: You eventually got across the fence?

ANSWER: Right.

QUESTION: And did the girls do it, also?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Then you got back to the driveway and continued walking on up; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Did anything happen as you were walking up the driveway?

ANSWER: Yes, a car’s lights flashed on us and the car came up and —

QUESTION: Just before that, do you remember, Charles, whether you — what order you were in, in the sequence of four going up the hill; was there anybody in front of you?

ANSWER: There was two girls in front. We were kind of like we were riding in the car, the same way we was riding in the car we was riding up, going up that hill.

QUESTION: Two girls in front of you?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And you are in back with another girl; is that correct?

ANSWER: Correct.

QUESTION: The four of you walked up this hill together?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: What happened then, when you saw the approaching lights?

ANSWER: We were all four across the fence and the car pulled up and stopped and —

QUESTION: Was anything said by anybody?

ANSWER: No, nothing was said by anybody. I stuck the gun in the car and shot.

QUESTION: Shot what?

ANSWER: The guy.

QUESTION: How many times?

ANSWER: I don’t recall the exact number of times.

QUESTION: Did you know who was in the car?

ANSWER: No, I just knew that Charlie, you know, like I could see and hear him, hear his voice like, and to kill everybody in the place; and I remember one of the girls did say something about, “We got to get everybody,” or something to that effect.

QUESTION: Was this before or after you saw the headlights of the car?

ANSWER: This was before we saw — I saw the headlights of the car.

QUESTION: Were you able to see who the driver of the car was?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t see anything.

QUESTION: Did he take any form or shape in your eyes?

ANSWER: No, huh-uh, just kind of like a mass thing there, you know. There really wasn’t any — felt like I was in a dream or something, you know, about half and half, you know; I felt half awake and half not awake.

QUESTION: All right. After you shot the driver of the car, what did you next do?

ANSWER: Started walking up to the house.

QUESTION: Were the girls still with you?

ANSWER: I didn’t see the girls again until we were in the house.

QUESTION: Was there anybody in front of you as you continued on up the driveway toward the main house?

ANSWER: No, there was nobody in front of me.

QUESTION: What happened as you approached the front of the house?

ANSWER: I walked in the front door.

QUESTION: Was there anybody there?

ANSWER: There was a guy laying on a couch asleep.

QUESTION: But that’s after you got in the house; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s after I got in the house.

QUESTION: As you approached the door, was the door closed?

ANSWER: I believe it was, uh-huh; and I walked right in the door.

QUESTION: You just opened the door —

ANSWER: Just opened it up.

QUESTION: –just turned the knob and go right in?

ANSWER: Right.

QUESTION: Was any of the group — that is, any of the three girls with you at this time?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t see any girls at that time.

QUESTION: All right. What happened when you got in the house?

ANSWER: Then I saw Sadie.

QUESTION: Where?

ANSWER: She just popped up.

QUESTION: Do you know where she came from?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you see her before or after you saw the man on the couch?

ANSWER: I saw her — did you say before or after I saw the man on the couch?

QUESTION: Yes.

ANSWER: I believe I saw her before.

QUESTION: What was she doing, if you know?

ANSWER: She went by me and went in the other part of the house. I was in the front room and she started bringing out people out of the rooms.

QUESTION: How many people were in the front room that you went in?

ANSWER: There was one man laying on the couch asleep.

QUESTION: And was he awakened while you were in that room?

ANSWER: He awakened when everybody was coming into the room.

QUESTION: Who was coming into the room?

ANSWER: A bunch of people walking into the room.

QUESTION: How many? do you remember?

ANSWER: Three or four people were walking into the room.

QUESTION: Was Sadie one of them?

ANSWER: Sadie, yes, Sadie was one of them.

QUESTION: Do you remember who else among the girls was in that group, if they were?

ANSWER: I didn’t see any other girls yet.

QUESTION: You didn’t see Linda?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t see Linda.

QUESTION: Nor did you see Patricia; is that right?

ANSWER: She walked in the house as everybody was walking into the room.

QUESTION: What happened when the group was in the room then?

ANSWER: A guy started toward me and —

QUESTION: Was this the man that had been on the couch?

ANSWER: No, it was another person.

QUESTION: What happened then?

ANSWER: And I was — I remember I was kind of running or jumping back and forth behind the couch and making funny noises and Sadie said, “Watch out” or something like that and I turned around and I emptied the gun on this man.

QUESTION: You say emptied the gun on this man?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How many times did you shoot him, if you know?

ANSWER: I don’t know. I just shot, you know. I don’t know how many times I shot him.

QUESTION: Did you do anything else?

ANSWER: Then I went around the couch and started stabbing him.

QUESTION: This is the same man that you shot?

ANSWER: Yes. Patricia was already over there stabbing him and I went over and I did the same thing.

QUESTION: How long did that take or last?

ANSWER: Until Sadie hollered at me and she was fighting and stabbing a man going out the door.

QUESTION: What did you do about that, if anything?

ANSWER: I remember Sadie hollering, “Tex, Tex,” a bunch of times and I ran over and started hitting him with the gun.

QUESTION: After you hit him, did you do anything else?

ANSWER: I hit him for a while and then there was a little lapse of time, I believe, and then Sadie was still stabbing him on the ground and I walked over and stabbed him some more.

QUESTION: While he was on the ground?

ANSWER: Uh-huh.

QUESTION: He is now outside of the house; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: On the lawn?

ANSWER: On the lawn.

QUESTION: Did anything else happen?

ANSWER: Then Katie came running over and grabbed me by the arm and said something like, “There’s one over here,” or something. I don’t know what she said but she said, “come over here,” and we ran over and there was just a woman lying there that had blood all over her and stabbed her.

QUESTION: Did these people, or these people that you stabbed, or the objects that you stabbed, have any form?

ANSWER: They had form but I really didn’t see any faces, you know, or expressions or — they were just blobs of, you know —

QUESTION: Did you have a rope with you that evening?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you carry a rope up the hill or into the house?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you tie any people up in that house?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you throw a rope over a rafter or anything of that nature?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: I think you told us now you shot and stabbed somebody in the house; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: And then you stabbed some people outside of the house; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Do you remember where the couch was in the house?

ANSWER: The couch was kind of in the middle of the room longways, up and down, up and down the room.

QUESTION: Where were the two people that you stabbed in the house in relation to the couch?

ANSWER: Well, I only stabbed one person.

QUESTION: I am sorry –the one person in the house.

ANSWER: In front of the couch, laying longways, laying —

QUESTION: Parallel or perpendicular to the couch?

ANSWER: It was the opposite way of the couch.

QUESTION: That would be perpendicular to the couch?

ANSWER: Perpendicular to the couch.

QUESTION: How about the other person, do you remember if that was a man or a woman?

ANSWER: Had on blue jeans and stuff. I guess it was a man.

QUESTION: How about the other person?

ANSWER: The other person was laying at the end of the couch up toward the room where they came out of perpendicular to the end of the couch, on down from the end of the couch.

QUESTION: Did you touch either of those bodies after you had shot and stabbed them?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you move them?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you tie anything to them or tie them together?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: After you left that room and went outside, did you go back into the house again?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you write anything on the walls of the house?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you slit the screen in that house?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you see Linda about that house at all while you were there?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: You did see Sadie and Patricia; is that right?

ANSWER: Sadie and Patricia, yes.

QUESTION: Was there any screaming among any of these victims?

ANSWER: It was wild and it was loud and all kind of noises.

QUESTION: Did anybody beg for their life?

ANSWER: I couldn’t really make out anything like that – screams and noises, loud noises.

QUESTION: Did you hear any dogs barking?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t hear any dogs barking.

QUESTION: Did you hear the sound of music from a hi-fi set or anything like that?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t hear any music or anything like that.

QUESTION: How long would you say you were in this house on Cielo Drive?

ANSWER: I don’t have any idea of time or anything, how long I was in there.

QUESTION: After you left the house where did you go?

ANSWER: I was outside in the — between the, like on the driveway outside of the house there.

QUESTION: I take it these people were not people you had ever seen before, were they?

ANSWER: No. I never had seen anybody. I couldn’t make them out, not that much.

QUESTION: Can you tell us what it is that made you go there?

ANSWER: I was doing what Charlie had told me to do.

QUESTION: I take it you had no grievance with those people?

ANSWER: No, none at all.

QUESTION: How did you leave the premises, Charles?

ANSWER: We walked down the hill.

QUESTION: How many of you walked down?

ANSWER: Three.

QUESTION: Was Linda among that group?

ANSWER: No, she was not.

QUESTION: Did you punch the button and get through the gate on the Way out?

ANSWER: We walked out the gate, but I didn’t punch any button.

QUESTION: Do you know who did?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: You walked on down the hill?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you have the gun and the knife with you?

ANSWER: Yes, it was still with me.

QUESTION: And where was the car, if you remember?

ANSWER: Parked at the bottom of the hill.

QUESTION: Where you had left it?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: All right; did you get back in the car?

ANSWER: Yes. No, Linda was sitting in some leaves or something beside the car, and she got in the passenger’s seat and the girls got in the back seat and I got under the wheel and then Sadie or Katie, one, said for Linda to drive and for me to change clothes. So I scooted over and Linda drove off and I was changing clothes.

QUESTION: Did the car come to a stop again?

ANSWER: Yes, it did.

QUESTION: Where?

ANSWER: On some street.

QUESTION: What did you do in between the time that you left Cielo Drive and the car stopped?

ANSWER: I changed clothes.

QUESTION: Removed what, your shirt and trousers?

ANSWER: Yes, removed everything I had on.

QUESTION: And you obviously put some other clothing on; is that right?

ANSWER: Yes. The girls in the back seat handed me some clothes to change into.

QUESTION: And how about the girls, did they change their clothes?

ANSWER: As far as I know; I can’t remember what they did, really, at that time.

QUESTION: Where were you in the car when you changed clothes?

ANSWER: I was in the front seat.

QUESTION: Alongside of Linda; is that correct?

ANSWER: Correct.

QUESTION: And do you have any recollection of how long you might have been driving before you next stopped?

ANSWER: No. It didn’t seem like too long, though, too long a time.

QUESTION: Then you came to a stop in the car, did you?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you all get out?

ANSWER: Yes, we did.

QUESTION: Where did you go?

ANSWER: We were walking up the street and a water hose was coming out the driveway.

QUESTION: Incidentally, when you drove on this street where you saw the water hose, did you park the car on that same side of the street?

ANSWER: The car was parked going back down the street.

QUESTION: So the front was pointed down toward Beverly Glen; is that right?

ANSWER: It was pointed back towards the main street.

QUESTION: I mean Benedict Canyon, not Beverly Glen, I’m sorry. Is that correct?

ANSWER: It was pointed down towards the main street.

QUESTION: Then you walked toward the water house, did you?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s correct.

QUESTION: The four of you?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did somebody come out while you were there?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: What happened when that person appeared?

ANSWER: He appeared and walked right up in front of me, right up to my face and said, “What you doing?” or something like that; and I said, “Getting a drink.”

QUESTION: What were you doing?

ANSWER: Getting a drink.

QUESTION: Did you have the water hose and the water running?

ANSWER: I don’t recall that.

QUESTION: What happened after he talked with you?

ANSWER: I know there was a lot of confusion came down then; somebody ran out the house and we started walking towards the car.

QUESTION: Did this man say or do anything?

ANSWER: I can’t recall him saying anymore than what he said.

QUESTION: Did he say, “What are you doing?” and you said you were getting a drink of water?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: And there was this confusion that you spoke of?

ANSWER: Yeah, and we started walking toward the car.

QUESTION: How far away was the car?

ANSWER: Not too far at all; it was just right — not too far.

QUESTION: Did this man ever threaten you?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you threaten him?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: You still had the knife and the gun, didn’t you?

ANSWER: Not on me.

QUESTION: Well, was it in the car?

ANSWER: Yes, it was in the car.

QUESTION: What happened when you got back to the car?

ANSWER: I jumped under the wheel this time and the girls got in and we drove away.

QUESTION: Where did you go?

ANSWER: I started driving and then one of the girls in the back seat said we had to stop and throw out the clothes and knives, so that’s what we did; stopped and threw away everything that was in the car.

QUESTION: Incidentally, Charles, I hate to take you back, but do you remember how many people you shot in the house?

ANSWER: One person.

QUESTION: Oh, you shot one in the car, is that correct, outside of the house?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: And one in the house?

ANSWER: That’s what I did.

QUESTION: Do you have any recollection of shooting any other person in the house?

ANSWER: No, I have not, no.

QUESTION: Did you know that the gun still had live bullets in it?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: You thought you had discharged them all?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: All right. Now, back to leaving the house at the scene: Where did you drive after you left the house where you got the water?

ANSWER: Where did we what, now?

QUESTION: Where did you drive after you left the house where you got the water?

ANSWER: Up the hill.

QUESTION: To where, if you remember?

ANSWER: We went up and over and stopped at a filling station.

QUESTION: Didn’t anything happen there that you remember?

ANSWER: No, I know I got out and went to the bathroom.

QUESTION: And then after that, where did you go?

ANSWER: I came out of the bathroom and got into the back seat of the car and laid down and ended up at the ranch.

QUESTION: Do you remember what time of day or night it was?

ANSWER: Just that it was dark and late.

QUESTION: What did you do when you got to the ranch?

ANSWER: We all went into the room at the end of the ranch house.

QUESTION: Was anybody up at that hour?

ANSWER: Charlie was running around without any clothes on, I remember that.

QUESTION: Anybody else with him?

ANSWER: And Brenda was there, and that’s all I can recall.

QUESTION: Did you tell Charlie what happened, or was anything said about that night?

ANSWER: I didn’t say anything that night, but I know Charlie was kind of talking to some of the people in the ranch house there.

QUESTION: What did you do after seeing Charlie back in the ranch house?

ANSWER: I went to sleep.

QUESTION: Did you talk at all with Charlie that night?

ANSWER: No, I did not talk to Charlie that night.

QUESTION: Did you see him the following day?

ANSWER: I didn’t see him until later that night.

QUESTION: Do you have any recollection of being up at all that following day?

ANSWER: Not the following day, no.

QUESTION: Did you sleep most of the day?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: What happened the following day when you saw Charlie?

ANSWER: The first thing I remember is him giving me a knife and some acid.

QUESTION: What time of the day or night was this?

ANSWER: I know it was just dark, a little after dark.

QUESTION: Had you eaten supper yet?

ANSWER: I can’t recall about supper that night.

QUESTION: You got the knife and acid and then what?

ANSWER: He told me to get in the car.

QUESTION: It was the same —

ANSWER: The same car.

QUESTION: The same Ford automobile?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Was anybody else in the car?

ANSWER: Linda and in the back seat, was full, it had Sadie, Katie, and Leslie and Steve Grogan.

QUESTION: There were seven of you; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Who was driving?

ANSWER: Charlie was driving.

QUESTION: Did he say where you were going or what you were going to do?

ANSWER: I can’t recall right now what he said.

QUESTION: Incidentally, before you went out this evening of the 9th, had there been any discussion between you and Charlie about weapons? Anything said about weapons?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you ever tell Charlie that you ought to have better weapons than you had the night before?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you ever use the expression “I am the devil here to do the devil’s work”?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you ever say that at the Tate house?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you say that the following night, if you remember?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you ever tell Charlie in the bunk house that that is what you said?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Had there ever been any discussion about the devil as part of the Manson philosophy?

ANSWER: The devil was the people, society, in that they were — had so much thought that they were tearing up the world.

QUESTION: That is who Manson considered the devil?

ANSWER: Yes; and also we, before we lost our thought, we were the devil.

QUESTION: But you were no longer the devil now?

ANSWER: No, sir. We were considered as Christ, perfect.

QUESTION: Is that what Charlie told you?

ANSWER: Everything was perfect, no mistake.

THE COURT: I think this would be a good time to recess. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will recess at this time until 9:30 tomorrow morning. Once more do not form or express any opinion in this case. Do not discuss it among yourselves or with anybody else. Please keep an open mind. 9:30 tomorrow morning.

(An adjournment was taken until Thursday, September 2, 1971 at 9:30 a.m.)

THE COURT: People against Watson. Let the record show all jurors are present, counsel and defendant are present. You may proceed, Mr. Bubrick.

THE CLERK: Now, you have been previously sworn. Will you restate your name for the record?

THE WITNESS: Charles Watson.

CHARLES WATSON,
resumed the stand and testified further as follows

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. BUBRICK:

QUESTION: Charles, before we pick up where we left of yesterday, I’d like to ask you one or two questions leading up to the incidents you have described heretofore. Do you recall when you left the Spahn Ranch on the night of the 9th of August in the car with the other three occupants, you told us about a conversation you had with Mr. Manson before you got in the car and left. Do you recall that?

ANSWER: Yes; before I got in the car he said that the girls know what to do, know all the witchy things to do.

QUESTION: Now, after your conversation with Mr. Manson and before the car left, was there any conversation between Manson and the girls?

ANSWER: He said he had already told the girls what to do and they knew what to do.

QUESTION: Did you hear any discussion between Manson and the girls about Witchy things?

ANSWER: The only conversation I remember was what he said to me when I told him I couldn’t remember all the stuff. He said that the girls knew everything to do, the witchy things and everything.

QUESTION: Now, when you left in the car at that time, Charles, are you aware of any rope in the car?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t see any rope or anything it the car.

QUESTION: Did you see anybody carrying any rope at any time during that experience on the night of the 9th?

ANSWER: No. I didn’t see a rope.

QUESTION: I think you told us yesterday also — and I want to make sure that this has been covered. — about stopping at the house that has been identified as Mr. Weber’s house, where you used the hose. Do you recall that incident?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And I think you told us that when you left that spot, you drove the car; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: In between the time that you left the Webers house and you next stopped the car, was there anything done with any clothing, if you remember?

ANSWER: One of the girls in the back seat said we had to throw away the clothes and I pulled over, and then I believe it was Linda, she threw everything out of the car, threw everything out of the car.

QUESTION: Incidentally, had Linda taken along a change of clothing, if you know?

ANSWER: I didn’t never see any clothes until they handed me the ones I changed into.

QUESTION: In the Tate house, were you aware of anything being written on the walls while you were there?

ANSWER: No, I wasn’t.

QUESTION: Did you see anybody write anything on the walls?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you see anybody write anything on the way out of the house?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: I think you have told us yesterday about getting back to the ranch and then I think you told us you slept most of the day, the following day; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Did something happen the evening of the 9th?

ANSWER: Yes, uh-huh.

QUESTION: What happened on that night?

ANSWER: Charlie came walking up to me and gave me some acid and a knife.

QUESTION: Can you fix the time of the day or evening that this occurred?

ANSWER: I just know it was dark, that is all.

QUESTION: Had you eaten dinner that night?

ANSWER: I can’t recall about dinner that night. I’m not for sure about that.

QUESTION: Charlie gave you some acid and a knife and then what?

ANSWER: Told me to get in the car.

QUESTION: Who was in the car at that time?

ANSWER: In the front seat, in the middle Linda, and in the back was Steve Grogan and Sadie and Leslie and Katie,

QUESTION: Did you notice anything in the car other than the knife which you had?

ANSWER: I believe Charlie had a gun.

QUESTION: Did you see that?

ANSWER: I saw it sometime during the night, but I am not for sure when.

QUESTION: How about the other girls and Steve, did they have any weapons of any sort that you are aware of?

ANSWER: I was only aware of my knife, that is all.

QUESTION: And when you left the Spahn Ranch on the evening of the 9th, who drove?

ANSWER: Charlie was driving.

QUESTION: I think you told us yesterday there were seven people in the car; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes. It would be seven people.

QUESTION: And was this the same car that had been used the night before?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And it is still the car without the back seat; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember where Charlie drove?

ANSWER: I believe the first place we stopped at a filling station or something like that.

QUESTION: To get some gasoline or something?

ANSWER: I don’t know for sure.

QUESTION: All right. Where did you go after that?

ANSWER: He started driving. I don’t know if Charlie was still driving or not, but I know we drove for a long time.

QUESTION: Was this an area that was familiar to you?

ANSWER: No, I wasn’t familiar with any of the area. I just wasn’t watching, really, the driving part of it.

QUESTION: Did the car eventually come to a stop?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And did anything occur when the car stopped?

ANSWER: The car stopped two or three times before we stopped the last time —

QUESTION: All right.

ANSWER: — when I got out.

QUESTION: Tell us what happened when the car stopped the last time, as you put it.

ANSWER: Well, Charlie got out of the car and then he came back to the car and told me and two of the girls — it was Leslie and Katie — to get out; and they got out and he was talking to them on the side, the driver’s side, and I walked around behind the car and I can’t remember hardly at all the exact words he said to me, but something to the effect to go in and do like last night, or to make sure everybody is dead gruesomely, or something to that effect. I can’t remember the exact words; it’s kind of fuzzy there — and I had a knife.

QUESTION: Did you see anything in the hands of the girls at this time?

ANSWER: I didn’t notice.

QUESTION: Incidentally, how long was Manson out of the car when he went into this house and, let’s refer to it as the La Bianca house?

ANSWER: I have no idea.

QUESTION: Did you all, the six of you, remain seated in the car while Manson went out?

ANSWER: Yes — no, he was the only one that got out.

QUESTION: The six of you, then, remained behind; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s correct.

QUESTION: Did anybody get out of the car while he was out of the car?

ANSWER: No, I don’t believe so.

QUESTION: Could you tell where he was going?

ANSWER: I didn’t watch where he was going.

QUESTION: Now, had you ever been to the home of a man by the name of Harold True?

ANSWER: No, 1 have not.

QUESTION: Never been in that house?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: So I take it this area was not, then, familiar to you at all.

ANSWER: No, I didn’t know where I was.

QUESTION: Did you know who lived in the La Bianca house?

ANSWER: No, I never had been in the neighborhood,

QUESTION: Were there any lights on about the house, if you remember?

ANSWER: I didn’t notice.

QUESTION: Did you see Mr. Manson enter the house, if he did?

ANSWER: No, I wasn’t watching or anything.

QUESTION: When you and Katie and Leslie left, what did you do?

ANSWER: When we left —

QUESTION: The car.

ANSWER: the car? We walked up to the house.

QUESTION: Incidentally, before you left the car did Manson say anything to you about getting back to the ranch?

ANSWER: No, he didn’t say anything to me about it.

QUESTION: All right. Then you, Katie and Leslie started up into the house; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Do you remember how you got up to the house; was there a driveway or steps or what?

ANSWER: We just walked straight to the house; I don’t recall a driveway.

QUESTION: Do you remember how you got in?

ANSWER: Walked in the front door.

QUESTION: Was it open or closed?

ANSWER: I can’t recall that.

QUESTION: And once you got in, what happened?

ANSWER: Katie went one way and Leslie went the other way, and I went kind of the way that Katie went; and started stabbing on — Katie and I — on the body on the couch.

QUESTION: Can you describe the body on the couch; could you see its face?

ANSWER: No, it had a cover over it, over the face.

QUESTION: What sort of a cover?

ANSWER: I don’t know; it was.the head was just wrapped up with something, you know.

QUESTION: With material of some sort?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Could you see anything underneath that material?

ANSWER: No, I couldn’t.

QUESTION: Could you see anything around the neck of that person?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Could you tell whether it was a man or a woman?

ANSWER: No, you really couldn’t.

QUESTION: Then you and Katie stabbed on this person?

ANSWER: Yes, that correct.

QUESTION: Then what happened after that?

ANSWER: Leslie hollered — she was screaming, you know, and I ran into the room where she was screaming and she was stabbing another person.

QUESTION: What was the position of this person when you first saw her?

ANSWER: She was kind of standing in a fell to the floor.

QUESTION: Was this second person a female?

ANSWER: I believe so.

QUESTION: Could you see her features or her face?

ANSWER: No, you couldn’t.

QUESTION: Was her face also covered?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: By some material?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Was this person’s hands bound in any way?

ANSWER: No, I don’t believe so.

QUESTION: Did you see anything in her hand?

ANSWER: There was a lamp all around her. I remember seeing holding a lamp or something. The lamp was flying over.

QUESTION: She was holding a lamp?

ANSWER: Yes, uh-huh.

QUESTION: In what manner?

ANSWER: She had it in her arms or something like that (indicating).

QUESTION: And what if anything was Katie doing at that time?

ANSWER: Katie came running in, into the room, and called me back into the other room and I went in there and we continued to stab on the person in there.

QUESTION: Was it the female or the person on the couch?

ANSWER: The person on the couch.

QUESTION: Had you stabbed the person, the female?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And had the other two also so far as you know?

ANSWER: What?

QUESTION: Stabbed on that person.

ANSWER: Now repeat that again, please.

QUESTION: Did Katie and Leslie stab the other person also, if you know?

ANSWER: Yes. When I went into the bedroom that is what Leslie was doing.

QUESTION: How long would you say you were in this house, if you know?

ANSWER: There wasn’t much time. You know time didn’t really make any sense to me, just flashing by, your know.

QUESTION: Do you know at this time whether anything was being written on the walls?

ANSWER: It seems like I can recall seeing Leslie writing something on the walls but I don’t know what.

QUESTION: Did you write anything on the walls?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you write anything on the refrigerator?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t write anything.

QUESTION: Did you know the people in this house?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: So far as you know had you ever seen them before?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: What did you do after you left the house?

ANSWER: Started walking.

QUESTION: I take it it was still dark, was it?

ANSWER: Yes, it was dark..

QUESTION: Was there anything done about a change of clothes on this occasion?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: What was done about that?

ANSWER: Before leaving the house Katie and Leslie were changing clothes, and I didn’t have any to change into, so they got me some, somewhere, I don’t know where they came from.

QUESTION: What did you change into?

ANSWER: I remember there was some tennis shoes and a pair of pants and a shirt.

QUESTION: What did you do with the clothing you took off?

ANSWER: The girls were carrying it when we were walking down the road and I remember laying, under a tree and then I never did see the clothes again.

QUESTION: You say you laid down under a tree. What did the girls do, if you know?

ANSWER: I guess they were laying down too.

QUESTION: It was still dark outside, was it?

ANSWER: Yes. It was dark.

QUESTION: What is your next recollection after lying down under the tree?

ANSWER: It became daylight.

QUESTION: You were still in the same position under the same tree?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you have any idea where this area, that is the tree under which you had spent the night, was with respect to the house that you had left?

ANSWER: Well, I know we walked a long ways. We were lost. We didn’t know where we were. I didn’t know where I was anyway.

QUESTION: And did you ask anybody during the evening hours where you were, how you would get back to the Spahn Ranch?

ANSWER: We got down to a main street and a guy picked us up.

QUESTION: Is this still at nighttime, Charles, or is this the following morning?

ANSWER: No, it is morning now.

QUESTION: What I asked you a moment ago was whether you had made any effort to find out where you were before you spent the night under some tree?

ANSWER: No. We just — we were just walking, you know.

QUESTION: And you spent the night resting, lying under a tree?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And then when daylight came, then you started to walk somewhere; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And is that when you hitched a ride?

ANSWER: That is when the car came by — finally got to where there was cars, you know.

QUESTION: Did you have any idea where that area is?

ANSWER: I know he took us down to a freeway, the car did.

QUESTION: And did you get out at the freeway?

ANSWER: Yes. We got out at the freeway.

QUESTION: Then what did you do there? Hitch-hike on to the ranch?

ANSWER: Yes. Another guy picked us up.

QUESTION: The three of you got back to the ranch about the same time?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you all come back in the same vehicle?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you have any idea of what time of day it was when you got back to the ranch?

ANSWER: Well, it had been daylight for quite a while. I believe it was still morning, in the morning, maybe late morning.

QUESTION: Do you remember what you did for the balance of that morning?

ANSWER: I went to sleep.

QUESTION: Before doing that did you talk to Manson, do you remember?

ANSWER: No, I never did see him that day.

QUESTION: You went to sleep that day then and what else, what occurred if you can remember?

ANSWER: That is all I remember occurring.

QUESTION: Do you remember seeing or talking to Barbara Hoyt that day?

ANSWER: No, I don’t really even know if she was at the ranch at that time or not.

QUESTION: Do you remember telling anybody not to say anything about the fact that you had been out or that you had been at a love in or something like that?

ANSWER: No, I don’t.

QUESTION: Do you remember how long you stayed at the ranch?

ANSWER: Before going somewhere again?

QUESTION: Yes, before leaving.

ANSWER: No, I don’t recall exactly. I know I did — was told by Manson to go up to Olancha.

QUESTION: Do you remember when that occurred?

ANSWER: Not exactly. I know it was probably two or three days, or maybe a day later — well, two days, three days, maybe, I don’t know.

QUESTION: Were you arrested at the ranch on August the 16th?

ANSWER: No, I was not.

QUESTION: You weren’t at the ranch on that day; is that correct?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Had you already left for Olancha?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Now, between the time that you were at the LaBianca house and the time that you left for Olancha, did you ever discuss the events of that evening with Mr. Manson?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you ever discuss it with anybody else at the ranch?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did anybody ask you what had happened?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did Manson ask you what had happened?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Was there any difference between the way you lived prior to going to the Tate-LaBianca houses and what you continued to do at the ranch until you left for Olancha?

ANSWER: Could you repeat that?

QUESTION: Well, were you treated the same after you got back from the Tate-LaBianca incidents as you always were up until the time you left for Olancha?

ANSWER: Yeah, I was still pretty high.

QUESTION: What else did you do about the ranch?

ANSWER: I didn’t do anything.

QUESTION: Did you work on any dune buggies?

ANSWER: When I got back?

QUESTION: Yes.

ANSWER: No, I didn’t.

QUESTION: Before going to Olancha?

ANSWER: Before going to Olancha? You an after the murders?

QUESTION: Yes.

ANSWER: Not that I can recall, no.

QUESTION: How did you get up to Olancha, if you remember?

ANSWER: In a truck, a big truck.

QUESTION: Who drove, if you remember?

ANSWER: The guy that owned the ranch at Olancha.

QUESTION: Had he been at the Spahn Ranch?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember his name?

ANSWER: Dave was his name.

QUESTION: Do you remember his last name?

ANSWER: I remember the windmill at this ranch had “Hunter” on it.

Now, I don’t know if that’s his last name; I thought it was “Hunter.”

THE COURT: What was it, “Hunter”?

THE WITNESS: Hunter.

QUESTION BY MR. BUBRICK: How many people went up to Olancha, if you remember?

ANSWER: There was three of us in the front of the truck.

QUESTION: Who were they, besides yourself?

ANSWER: Juan and Dave, the guy that was driving the truck.

QUESTION: Did you take anything up to Olancha with you, if you remember?

ANSWER: The whole back of the truck was loaded down.

QUESTION: With what?

ANSWER: There was a dune buggy on there and a lot of tools and stuff, you know.

QUESTION: Did Manson tell you why he wanted you to go to Olancha?

ANSWER: I don’t know; he said something about putting the young people there or something, but I don’t know. I never did question him, you know. He said to go to Olancha so I went to Olancha.

QUESTION: Did you continue to take any drugs during this period of time before leaving for Olancha?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Do you remember getting to Olancha with —

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: — T.J. and Mr. Hunter, Bill?

ANSWER: No, it was Juan.

QUESTION: Juan?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And when you got there, were there any other people there?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did anybody else come up and join you at Olancha?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How much later?

ANSWER: I was there by myself and then Snake showed up, a girl named Snake, and some young boy.

QUESTION: Anybody else that you remember?

ANSWER: That’s all that was there right then.

QUESTION: Snake is Diana Lake; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: Or Diana Bluestein, however you knew her?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How long were the three of you at Olancha?

ANSWER: We were there a few days and then some more people showed up; and then — I can’t really recall, I believe around 10 days — 10 days or so, two weeks, maybe.

QUESTION: Were there any drugs being used at Olancha, if you remember?

ANSWER: I remember we picked some little flowers off of some desert plant, you know. It wasn’t a drug, you know; I don’t know just what it was, it wasn’t a drug or anything.

QUESTION: Had you brought any drugs with you to Olancha?

ANSWER: No, I had not.

QUESTION: Did you have any marijuana or hashish?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you buy any papers in the Olancha area?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did anybody buy any paper, that you know of?

ANSWER: The little guy went over to the store and when he came back, he had a paper and some cigarettes and stuff.

QUESTION: Do you remember an incident in Olancha involving a police officer by the name of Mr. Cox?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did this incident about buying the paper occur before or after the incident with Mr. Cox?

ANSWER: I really don’t recall that.

QUESTION: Do you remember about what day of the month it was?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you read the paper?

ANSWER: I really don’t recall that, but I could have had it in my hands. I really can’t say that.

QUESTION: Do you remember the headline on the paper?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Do you remember discussing the contents of the paper with Diane Lake?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Do you remember any discussion between yourself and Diane Lake about killing Sharon Tate?

ANSWER: No, I can’t remember anything like that.

QUESTION: Did you ever tell her you killed Sharon Tate and that it was fun?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Do you remember Mr. Cox asking you what you were doing there, or something of that nature?

ANSWER: Yes, he asked us what we were doing there and I believe I told him that the owner of the ranch had left us there and we were going to try to fix up the place, something to that effect.

QUESTION: Do you remember how many days after the incident with the newspaper it was that you saw Mr. Cox core to the ranch?

ANSWER: Mr. Cox, he came to the ranch several times, about five or six times, I believe.

QUESTION: Before the date when he asked you for identification?

ANSWER: No, that day was his first day.

QUESTION: That was the day that Diane was wading in the creek and you were on the cot; is that correct?

ANSWER: I don’t know what Diane was doing then.

QUESTION: Do you remember whether he asked you for identification on more than one occasion?

ANSWER: No. After the first occasion, he came over several times and saw me several times, but he never did ask for any identification.

QUESTION: All right. On the first occasion that he did ask you for identification, do you remember what name you gave him?

ANSWER: Charles Montgomery.

QUESTION: Any particular reason for that?

ANSWER: Well, we always went by all kinds of names out there but the main reason was a long time before that I had thrown away all of my identification, because the truck that I had given away came back to the ranch and —

QUESTION: That is the ’35 Dodge?

ANSWER: Yes. And I was told by a couple of people — the first person that brought it back, that it was still in my name and that he had some warrants out, some kind of warrants out for the truck or something. I remember Dennis Wilson also came to the ranch and he had the truck then and said that he got stopped or something, and had used my name, you know, and so I threw my identification away.

QUESTION: What did you throw away, if you remember?

ANSWER: My driver’s license and Selective service card.

QUESTION: Was your driver’s license a California license?

ANSWER: Yes

QUESTION: Was it in the name of Charles Watson?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And then you used the name of Montgomery on this occasion; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes. That is my mother’s maiden name and any uncles’ name.

QUESTION: Did you give Mr. Cox any other information about yourself that you can recall?

ANSWER: I believe I told him I was from Texas and that is all I told him.

QUESTION: You were not arrested on that occasion; is that correct?

ANSWER: No, sir.

QUESTION: How were you living out there on the ranch in Olancha?

ANSWER: Well, I know he gave Diane $5 one time and we bought some groceries with it.

QUESTION: Who gave her $5?

ANSWER: Mr. Cox.

QUESTION: Did you have any money of your own?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did any of the girls have any money that you are aware of?

ANSWER: Just the $5, that is about all I seen. I might have had some change when I got there, but I don’t know. I really couldn’t recall that.

QUESTION: Did you take any foodstuffs up with you when you went to Olancha?

ANSWER: No, no food.

QUESTION: Had you given any thought as to how you were going o eat?

ANSWER: I remember Charlie — he said everybody was going to move up there.

QUESTION: How long did you stay at Olancha? You think about 10 days?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And where did you go from there?

ANSWER: I went to Goler Wash.

QUESTION: How far is that in terms of miles?

ANSWER: I really don’t know. I would say over 100, though.

QUESTION: Olancha is up toward Lone Pine and Independence way; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: And which direction from that is Goler Wash? East toward the desert?

ANSWER: Well, it is in Death Valley. Now, I don’t know which direction it is.

QUESTION: Before leaving Olancha, did you talk to your mother? Do you recall if you ever talked to her by phone?

ANSWER: Yes, I did. I just — I called her.

QUESTION: Do you remember from where?

ANSWER: Olancha.

QUESTION: Do you remember how that happened to come about?

ANSWER: Just popped — I don’t know why — it just popped in my head and I called.

QUESTION: What popped in your head?

ANSWER: Calling.

QUESTION: When you called her, what did you say?

ANSWER: I remember telling her that the end of the world was coming and that we were going to be the only ones left on earth in the bottomless pit and that I had found Jesus and that is about all I can recall.

QUESTION: Did you ask her how she felt?

ANSWER: No. I didn’t ask her anything.

QUESTION: Did you inquire at all about the rest of the family?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: How long had it been since you had last talked with your mother?

ANSWER: I believe I talked to her the first of the year.

QUESTION: Where did you go after you left Olancha?

ANSWER: To Goler Wash.

QUESTION: How long did you stay there?

ANSWER: A couple of days I believe.

QUESTION: Do you remember who left on the trip from Olancha to Goler Wash?

ANSWER: Bruce Davis and Brenda and

QUESTION: Where was Mr. Manson, if you know?

ANSWER: I don’t know.

QUESTION: What happened to Diana Lake and the rest of the people, if you know?

ANSWER: I know Brenda and Bruce and some more people came up.

QUESTION: To Goler Wash?

ANSWER: No, to Olancha, and said that Charlie said to go to Goler Wash with all the stuff. That is what we did.

QUESTION: And the three of you then left and went to Goler Wash by truck?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And what did you carry on the truck, if you remember?

ANSWER: The same stuff that we carried on it the last time.

QUESTION: What was in Goler Wash when you got there?

ANSWER: Well, up the wash was an older type man named Paul and Paul Watkins and Brooks.

QUESTION: You knew Brooks and Paul Watkins from former associations on the ranch, didn’t you?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Had there been some period of time during which you did not see them?

ANSWER: Yes. I hadn’t seen Brooks that year i know.

QUESTION: How about Paul?

ANSWER: And Paul, he was at the ranch; I believe he may have left a month and a half or two, maybe, after I got back the second time; maybe May or June, I believe.

QUESTION: Did you know that Brooks, Paul and Crockett would be in Golar Wash?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Is there some sort of a community in Golar Wash?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Is it just a desert area?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Had you ever been there before?

ANSWER: Yes, one time.

QUESTION: I take it, Manson was not there; is that correct?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you take any drugs with you to Golar Wash?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Incidentally, had you had any drugs with you at all while you were at Olancha?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: How long did you stay in Golar Wash?

ANSWER: About two days.

QUESTION: What happened after that?

ANSWER: We left all the stuff there and — let’s see — and went back to Olancha to get another load.

QUESTION: Who went back to Olancha this time?

ANSWER: Bruce and Brenda and I.

QUESTION: The same three that had gone to Golar Wash, now are going back to Olancha; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: And what did you do — who did you find when you got back to Olancha?

ANSWER: I know we did see Mr. Cox again there.

QUESTION: Did you get the rest of your equipment from Olancha?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you load it on the truck?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Then what did you do?

ANSWER: I remember it was in the morning and we drove back to Spahn Ranch; and as soon as we got there, Charlie told us to turn around and go back, take all the stuff that was on the truck back to Golar Wash.

QUESTION: You drove from Golar Wash to Olancha —

ANSWER: Uh-huh.

QUESTION: — and loaded the truck —

ANSWER: Uh-huh,

QUESTION: Then drove down to Spahn Ranch?

ANSWER: Uh-huh.

QUESTION: How far is that?

ANSWER: It was a long ways, it seemed like, you know.

QUESTION: Then how long did you stay in Spahn Ranch on that occasion?

ANSWER: As soon as we got there Charlie said to turn around and take all the stuff to Golar Wash.

QUESTION: Then did you do that?

ANSWER: That’s what we did,

QUESTION: Turned around and started driving to Golar Wash; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s right.

QUESTION: The same three?

ANSWER: No, this time there was a guy named Danny in the truck and I was in the truck; I’m not for sure about the third person.

QUESTION: How did you get your gasoline and oil for this vehicle, Charles?

ANSWER: At that time Brenda had a credit card.

QUESTION: Was it a legitimate credit card, if you know?

ANSWER: I don’t think there was ever any legitimate credit cards at the ranch.

QUESTION: You mean you would just use a stolen credit card, or something of that nature?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s correct.

QUESTION: Did you get all the gas and oil you needed to get back to Golar Wash?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you ever use the credit card for anything other than gasoline and oil?

ANSWER: At some of those little filling stations out on the desert we used to get — they had a little store — might get some ice cream or something: you know, or something to drink or something like that.

QUESTION: How long did you stay at Golar Wash when you got back the second time?

ANSWER: Into September there, it would have been; I say maybe two or three or five weeks, maybe.

QUESTION: Did you oversee Mr. Manson —

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: — during that three- or four-week period?

ANSWER: Yes, he came out to the desert in a car, I believe, at the same time.

We all kind of moved to the desert, when we turned around and went back to the desert from Spahn’s; everybody just about, left the ranch.

QUESTION: When you went from Spahn’s to the Golar Ranch the second time, were there many people left at Spahn Ranch?

ANSWER: l’d say three, four, five or six, something like that, maybe,

QUESTION: Did you see Manson at Spahn Ranch on that occasion? He told you to go back —

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: — so, obviously, you saw him?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And there were a number of other people with him; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, everybody that was living at the ranch.

QUESTION: Now, after you got to Golar Wash on that trip from Spahn Ranch, did Manson ever come up to Golar Wash while you were there?

ANSWER: Yes, we all went up.

QUESTION: Did he stay up at Golar wash for any period of time?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How long?

ANSWER: I can’t recall; I know he left and came back.

QUESTION: Can you give us some idea of the number of people up in Golar Wash, now, in the family?

ANSWER: Probably about 10.

QUESTION: Were there any drugs being used, if you know?

ANSWER: Only marijuana.

QUESTION: Was that being used frequently or infrequently?

ANSWER: Pretty frequently — I really can’t recall how frequently it was used then.

QUESTION: How about you, do you remember whether you were using it frequently or infrequently?

ANSWER: I would use it when everybody else used it.

QUESTION: Any drugs other than marijuana being used that you are aware of?

ANSWER: Not that I’m aware of, no.

QUESTION: Is this about the time that you saw Paul Crockett?

ANSWER: Yes, he was at the ranch there up in Golar Wash.

QUESTION: And Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins, also?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you have occasion to talk to Mr. Crockett from time to time?

ANSWER: Yes, a few times.

QUESTION: Do you remember — did you leave Golar Wash sometime?

ANSWER: Yes, Charlie sent me back into town with a list of things to do when I got back into town — with a list, a paper — and I went in and did what was on the list.

QUESTION: And then what?

ANSWER: And then I remember one of the things on the list was to — for everybody to come back to the desert, for everybody to leave the ranch.

QUESTION: Now, when you say you came back to town, you mean you drove back from Golar Wash to Spahn Ranch; is that correct?

ANSWER: No, I hitchhiked.

QUESTION: You told everybody at the ranch to go back to Golar Wash?

ANSWER: Yes, that was one of the things on the list.

QUESTION: What other things were on the list that you can remember?

ANSWER: I can’t remember the things on the list that good at all.

QUESTION: At any rate, after you came into Spahn Ranch on this hitchhiking expedition that you told us about, did you hitchhike back to Golar Wash?

ANSWER: No, we went back in a little Volkswagen-like car.

QUESTION: How many went back, if you remember?

ANSWER: About six; five or six.

QUESTION: Can you fix the time of the day or month for use now?

ANSWER: It was at the end of September, I believe.

QUESTION: Did you go back up to the same encampment at Golar?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How long did you stay after that, before you next left?

ANSWER: I want to say about two days, but I don’t know for sure, maybe one day — maybe one day, maybe two days or maybe three days.

QUESTION: Did something happen — did you leave the Golar Wash area?

ANSWER: Yes, after about two or three days when l was there the last time.

QUESTION: Did something happen to make you leave the Wash?

ANSWER: I know we saw a highway patrolman up there and a forest ranger; and we were just kind of camping out in the desert and quite a ways from the ranch part; and Charlie took me over to the ranch part one night and told me to stay there, and left a shotgun with me and he — some way he thought the forest ranger and the highway patrolman would come over, and he told me to kill them when they came over,

QUESTION: So you now were left by yourself on this ranch; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: How far distant was that from the main encampment at Goler Wash?

ANSWER: Where they were?

QUESTION: Yes, where they were at that time.

ANSWER: I don’t know. It is quite a ways, though.

QUESTION: What did you do?

ANSWER: I went to sleep that night and I woke up the next morning and I left.

QUESTION: Where did you go when you left?

ANSWER: I went hack to Texas.

QUESTION: Had you had any drugs while you were in Goler Wash other than the marijuana that you told us about?

ANSWER: No, I had not.

QUESTION: When had you last taken any LSD, if you can remember?

ANSWER: My last trip was before the murders.

QUESTION: Had there been much discussion between Manson and the remaining family members about helter skelter after the murders?

ANSWER: Yes. It was still coming down.

QUESTION: Still coming down?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How about the passing around of acid and other drugs? Was that still taking place?

ANSWER: No, not that much.

QUESTION: Did you sea any acid or drugs being used in the period following the murders?

ANSWER: Not that I can recall. There just wasn’t hardly any acid. I don’t think I saw any.

QUESTION: Were you given any, you specifically, given any by Manson during that period?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Then on what day is it that you decided to leave or that you did leave the ranch?

ANSWER: I don’t know. I didn’t know what day it was but I come to find out that it was somewhere the first of October.

QUESTION: What day did you finally get back to Texas?

ANSWER: Either the 2nd or the 3rd or the 4th, I believe.

QUESTION: When you left the desert, when you left this ranch, what sort of clothing did you have? What were you wearing?

ANSWER: I remember Brooks gave me the clothes that he had on.

QUESTION: What were they?

ANSWER: Well, a pair of jeans. They were really — came way up on me. They were real short. And, I don’t know, just probably an old shirt, I don’t know what type of top I had.

QUESTION: Where did you go after you left the desert? Where did you first go?

ANSWER: I took out in an old truck and went as far as it would go, Then I started hitch-hiking.

QUESTION: Do you remember that big city or town you came to?

ANSWER: I first caught a ride to Trona. Then I caught a ride to San Bernardino.

QUESTION: All right. Somewhere along the line did you wire home for some money?

ANSWER: Yes. I called at San Bernardino. I called my parents and they sent me some money, to the Western Union.

QUESTION: And then you went on home to Texas then?

ANSWER: Yes. I bought an airline ticket and I took over the old clothes I had on and got a pair of jeans and shirt and some shoes.

QUESTION: What happened when you got to Texas?

ANSWER: I know my hair was too long and my sister took me by the barber shop and I got a haircut.

QUESTION: Then you went on home?

ANSWER: Yes. She said it was too long to go back to my parents, or something. I went back to Copeville yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember how long you stayed on that occasion?

ANSWER: Not very long. I was just there for a few days and the I took out again.

QUESTION: Do you remember what you talked about when you first got home at Copeville?

ANSWER: Well, all I was talking about was helter skelter and Jesus and the world coming to an end.

QUESTION: In other words, Manson was still very much with you; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes. I couldn’t get away from him, even though I was in Texas. He was still right in my head all the time.

QUESTION: His philosophy was still part of you; is that right?

ANSWER: Yes, it was me.

QUESTION: Why did you leave the ranch when he asked you to kill the patrolmen and the forest ranger?

ANSWER: I don’t know. I just knew then that not to kill.

QUESTION: Did you feel any differently about killing those people and the people that you had killed?

ANSWER: Yeah.

QUESTION: What was the difference?

ANSWER: The other people I really didn’t even know I killed. It was never real to me and then things were becoming more real when he asked me to kill the ranger and the highway patrolman.

QUESTION: Had you been acid free, that is without taking acid for any period of time when you left that ranch?

ANSWER: I hadn’t had any acid since the murders.

QUESTION: How about speed?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: How about belladonna?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: How about cocaine?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: How about hashish?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: How about any of the amphetamines?

ANSWER: No. I hadn’t had any drugs at all.

QUESTION: How long did you stay then? You said a couple of days in Texas; is that right?

ANSWER: Yes. I can’t remember exactly but it wasn’t very long.

QUESTION: Where did you go after that?

ANSWER: My parents gave me some money and I really didn’t know where I was going. I was really mixed up, like Manson — there was kind of a magnetic pull back to him, but I was all confused. It seemed like I was living in about three or four worlds, you know, just, you know, so many different worlds I was looking at at that time and I ended up in Mexico.

QUESTION: How long did you stay in Mexico?

ANSWER: About a couple of days and then I went right to California trying to find Manson, but I still didn’t go back to him yet.

QUESTION: Where did you go when you came to California?

ANSWER: I went to Hawaii.

QUESTION: How long did you stay there?

ANSWER: About a week.

QUESTION: Did you come back to California from Hawaii?

ANSWER: Came back to California.

QUESTION: And when you got back, now where did you go?

ANSWER: I started out toward Manson again.

QUESTION: Where did you go on this trip?

ANSWER: I hitch-hiked as far as Ridgecrest and then I remember walking all night long toward Trona and finally I caught a ride into Trona.

QUESTION: Trona is on the edge of the desert?

ANSWER: Yes, And I walked from Trona all the way, a long ways, 50 miles or maybe 60 miles up Golar Wash and no one was there.

QUESTION: Did you see Paul or Dave or Mr, Crockett?

ANSWER: I didn’t see anyone.

QUESTION: No members of the family there?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: What did you do then?

ANSWER: Then I started walking back to Trona.

QUESTION: And from Trona where did you go?

ANSWER: To town the other side of Troma, Ridgecrest.

QUESTION: Where did you eventually wind up?

ANSWER: I called back home and asked for mother to send me some money so I could come home.

QUESTION: Did she do that?

ANSWER: Yes. I want home.

QUESTION: You went back home?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And you stayed there than until the time of your arrest; is that right?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Stayed in Copeville?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Use any drugs in Copeville?

ANSWER: Only marijuana.

QUESTION: On how many occasions? Do you remember?

ANSWER: Probably three or four or five times.

QUESTION: Did you do that in the house?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Do that around your folks?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: As you look back at it now, Charles, do you feel the same now as you did at the time of the Tate and LaBianca murders?

ANSWER: No, not at all.

QUESTION: I think you told us yesterday that these were not real people at that time; is that right?

ANSWER: Yes. Nothing seemed real at that time.

QUESTION: Did you have any feelings about what you were doing at that time?l

ANSWER: No feelings at all.

QUESTION: Do you have any feelings about it now?

ANSWER: Yes. My feelings have grown quite a bit.

QUESTION: How did that happen?

ANSWER: Well, through help from people and myself, I guess.

QUESTION: How do you feel about it now?

ANSWER: Well, I just can’t explain it, how you feel about something like that

QUESTION: Do you realize now what you have done?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: You realize the enormity of it?

ANSWER: Yes.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will take our morning recess at this time and once again please heed the admonition heretofore given you.

(Recess.)

THE COURT: People against Watson. Let the record show all jurors, counsel and defendant are present. Mr. Bugliosi.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI:

QUESTION: Mr. Watson, I show you some photographs here: People’s 87, a photograph of Sharon Tate; People’s 107, a photograph of Jay Sebring; people’s 102, a photograph of Abigail Folger; people’s 89, a photograph of Wojiciech Frykowski; people’s 42, a photograph of Steven Parent, people’s 91, a photograph of Leno LaBianca; and people’s 93, a photograph of Rosemary LaBianca. Now, just for the record, did you kill all seven of these people?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: So you also killed Sharon Tate, then; is that correct, the female Caucasian depicted in people’s 87?

ANSWER: As far as I know, yes.

QUESTION: Now, when you stabbed her was there a rope around her neck?

ANSWER: Not that I could see.

QUESTION: Was there any rope connecting her with Mr. Sebring?

ANSWER: I didn’t see anything like that.

QUESTION: You are not suggesting, are you, that after Sharon was already dead someone tied a rope around her, are you? You are not suggesting that?

MR. BUBRICK: Object to the form of the question,

THE COURT: Sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Now, I notice, Tex, that when you took the witness stand and the clerk asked you to raise you right hand and swear to tell the truth, you raised your left hand. Any particular reason for that?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: There was no confusion in your mind between your left and your right hand?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: That wasn’t for the benefit of the jury or anything like that, was it?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Have people always called you Tex?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: When did you pick up that name of Tex?

ANSWER: Mr. Spahn, the owner of the ranch out there, named me Tex when I first came to the ranch.

QUESTION: He knew you were from Texas so he called you Tex?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And your last name is Watson; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Montgomery is not your last name?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Would you explain once again to the jury why you told Deputy Dennis Cox on August the 21,1969 that your name was Charles Montgomery?

ANSWER: I was going by that name.

QUESTION: When did you start going by that name?

ANSWER: Well, about two or three or four months, when threw away my driver’s license, because I still had warrants out in my name. Then I started going by that name and any name that popped in my head like everybody else did at the ranch did, you know.

QUESTION: You didn’t give Mr. Cox a phony name because you were trying to avoid arrest for these murders, did you?

ANSWER: No. I had been using that name for quite a while, you know.

QUESTION: So you were very concerned about being picked up on these traffic tickets; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is why I threw away my billfold, yes.

QUESTION: But that is why you gave Mr, Cox this phony name because you were thinking about these traffic tickets; is that right?

ANSWER: No, not really. I didn’t have any thoughts. That was just the name I was using. That is the name I gave.

QUESTION: Did you testify on direct examination that you gave him that name because you knew there were some traffic warrants out under the name of Watson?

ANSWER: That is why I started using the name Montgomery because of the traffic warrants, yes.

QUESTION: Isn’t one possible reason why you never gave your correct name, Tex, because you didn’t want to be arrested for these murders?

MR. BUBRICK: Object to the question.

MR. KEITH: Object to the question as argumentative.

THE COURT: I will allow him to answer.

THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question once more?

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: One possible reason why you never gave your true name, Tex, is because you didn’t want to be arrested for these murders, isn’t it?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: That thought never entered your mind; is that correct?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t have, really, any thought at that time.

QUESTION: You had no thoughts in your mind; you just walked around and you acted, but no thoughts in your mind; is that what you are trying to tell the jury?

ANSWER: Yeah, that’s the way I was, kind of, yes.

QUESTION: Do you have any thoughts in your mind right now on the witness stand?

ANSWER: Yes, I have got a lot of thought back.

QUESTION: You are thinking pretty clearly now, aren’t you?

ANSWER: Sometimes I think clearly and sometimes I don’t.

QUESTION: And you are well aware, of course, that you are on trial for seven counts of murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder; you are aware of that?

ANSWER: Yes, I’m aware.

QUESTION: And you are aware that the prosecution is seeking the death penalty against you?

ANSWER: Yes

QUESTION: Would this realising on your part cause you to lie just a little bit on the witness stand, Tex?

MR. BUBRICK: Object to that question.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BUGLIOSI: His credibility, I want to know whether he is lying or rot.

MR. BUBRICK: Then ask him.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I want to know whether he is telling the truth or not —

THE COURT: You may resort to specifics, not a generalization like that.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I can’t go down a list of a thousand questions and examine whether he lied on every one of them. I want to know whether he’s lying now.

THE COURT: If you cannot do so, refrain from doing so.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Have you been lying on the witness stand, Mr. Watson?

ANSWER: No, I have not.

QUESTION: You wouldn’t think of lying, would you?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Why wouldn’t you think of lying, Tex?

MR. BUBRICK: It is immaterial.

THE COURT: Sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Why do you want to tell the truth?

ANSWER: Well, that’s just what comes out now, is the truth.

QUESTION: Was the truth coining out when you were stabbing these people at the Tate residence?

ANSWER: There was no thought.

QUESTION: When Mr. Cox approached you in Olancha, why did you run into the bushes?

ANSWER: I didn’t see Mr. Cox until I had already got over to where I could see Mr. Cox.

QUESTION: Why did you run at all?

ANSWER: I can’t remember running.

QUESTION: Is it your testimony now that you did not run up in Olancha when Mr. Cox approached; is that your testimony?

ANSWER: I don’t recall running, no

QUESTION: You don’t recall going into the bushes at all?

ANSWER: Yes, I recall going into the bushes.

QUESTION: Why did you go into the bushes?

ANSWER: I went to the rest room in the bushes.

QUESTION: And it just happened that you went into the bushes, to the rest room or the bathroom, in the bushes at the same time that Mr. Cox was there; is that right, it was just a coincidence?

ANSWER: Well, I went to the rest room and then I walked out of the bushes.

QUESTION: But it was a coincidence; is that correct?

ANSWER: I don’t know. That’s just what I did, you know.

QUESTION: Mr. Cox had a police uniform, didn’t he?

ANSWER: Yes, he did.

QUESTION: And his vehicle was a marked police vehicle, wasn’t it?

ANSWER: It was in front of the house, yes,

QUESTION: But you weren’t hiding from Mr. Cox at all, were you?

ANSWER: No, I wasn’t.

QUESTION: Tex, I have noticed that you frequently open your mouth and you keep it open for a period of time, even though you are not talking. Is there any particular reason for that?

ANSWER: Well, my mouth is always very dry and that’s the way I breathe is through my mouth.

QUESTION: So you deliberately open your mouth —

MR. BUBRICK: That’s not what he said.

THE COURT: He said that’s the way he breathes.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: So, in other words, it is an intentional act on your part, to open your mouth; is that right?

MR. BUBRICK: That’s not what he said, either, your Honor.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I’m asking him a question; this is cross-examination, your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, don’t preface it with “so.” Do you open your mouth intentionally or is it natural for you to breathe?

THE WITNESS: No, I breathe easier to have my mouth open, so I can breathe better.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: So this is a physical thing on your part; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: I believe you testified that the first time you smoked marijuana was in Dallas, Texas; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: And how did you get the marijuana at that time?

ANSWER: I walked into a girl’s apartment; I had met her at a club in Dallas and there was a smell in the room and someway that smell came into the conversation, and she said it was an old pot burning, or something to that effect; and it ended up that I smoked some marijuana with her a few days later.

QUESTION: She gave you the marijuana cigarette?

ANSWER: Yes, correct.

QUESTION: Then when you were living with Mt. Neale out here in Los Angeles, I believe you testified you smoked marijuana 30 or 40 times.

ANSWER: I don’t know how many times but we smoked marijuana quite often together.

QUESTION: Where did you get the marijuana?

ANSWER: At that time it came from a friend that was working at the wig shop with us.

QUESTION: He furnished the marijuana to you?

ANSWER: No. David and I purchased some marijuana.

QUESTION: And the first time you took LSD was at Dennis Wilson’s residence?

ANSWER: Yes, I was told that I might have took some LSD when I was down at my beach house but I didn’t believe that it was LSD because it never did do anything to me.

QUESTION: At the time you took marijuana and LSD you, of course, were aware that it was against the law; is that right?

ANSWER: Yes. I was aware that it was against the law.

QUESTION: Were you afraid you would get caught when you smoked the marijuana and took the LSD?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Now, how did you justify taking this LSD and smoking marijuana if you knew it was against the law? How did you justify it at the time?

ANSWER: I don’t really know how I justified it.

QUESTION: Were you thinking around that time too?

ANSWER: That is what I did, yes. I smoked marijuana and had thought then —

QUESTION: How did you justify in your mind, that it was against the law but you were doing it anyway?

ANSWER: It was just what kids were doing then. That is what I did.

QUESTION: Is it true then that before you even met Charles Manson you had smoked marijuana and you had ingested LSD; is that correct?

ANSWER: I am not for sure about the ingestion of LSD because I did not start taking LSD for sure while I knew it was LSD until with Dean and I had already met Charlie and the girls and Dennis.

QUESTION: But Charles Manson was not the person who got you involved in LSD; isn’t that correct?

ANSWER: I can’t really — it was, you know, during the time Dean was at Dennis’ and Manson was around. I remember Manson having some LSD but he didn’t ever give me any at Dennis Wilson’s. I don’t know where it came from.

QUESTION: So you ingested LSD and smoked marijuana before you ever got involved with Charles Manson; isn’t that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, with Dean Moorehouse.

QUESTION: Charles Manson then was not the person that got you started on marijuana or LSD; is that correct?

ANSWER: No. I would say it would be Dean and Charles and maybe Dennis, you know, just around the Wilson house there.

QUESTION: So my statement is correct then?

ANSWER: Well, I can’t be positive about it, you know, to say that it is.

QUESTION: Other than narcotics, Tex, before you met Charles Manson, did you have any trouble with the law?

MR. KEITH: Object to the question as immaterial.

THE COURT: Sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I believe near the end of your testimony, oh, about five minutes before the end of your testimony you testified in answer to this question by MR. BUBRICK:

QUESTION: When had you last taken any LSD if you can remember?” Do you recall answering: “my last trip was before the murders.” Do you recall giving that answer to that question?

ANSWER: Yes, I do.

QUESTION: And you know the difference between the words “before,” “during,” and “after,” don’t you? There is no confusion in your mind about those words.

ANSWER: Well, I remember taking it right before, yes.

QUESTION: Okay, Do you recall to yesterday afternoon that after the Tate murders on the night of the LaBianca murders Charles Manson gave you some LSD?

ANSWER: Well, that time too. That is what I mean, before the murders there, yes.

QUESTION: You say you decided to come out to California after your junior year at North Texas State College; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: And you came out here for adventure purposes?

ANSWER: Yes. That is about the only thing I could come up with on that.

QUESTION: And your parents didn’t want you to come out here.

ANSWER: There was a small objection but I came, you know.

QUESTION: You decided to come?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: You made up your own mind?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: What do you mean for adventure purposes? How do you define the word adventure? Narcotics, girls, or what?

ANSWER: No. I just never had been away from home and I knew David out here, you know, and I called him up and I came out a few times and it was just something new and I moved out with Dave.

QUESTION: Isn’t it true, Tex, that the main reason you came out here is you wanted to get into the movies?

ANSWER: No. I knew David and his brother were — had something to do, maybe, with the movies, but I never really had anything to do with the movies, you know.

QUESTION: Now, I know you didn’t, Tex, but that thought was on your mind of getting into the movies?

ANSWER: Maybe a little bit. I don’t know. Since David and his brother were in the movies, it might have been a little bit but —

QUESTION: Did you ever try to become a movie actor?

ANSWER: The only time I ever had anything to do with that, I went down to this acting place that has extra help or something that you can become like a stand-in or something and it didn’t work out, you know.

QUESTION: When was that?

ANSWER: Right after I got out here and was going to college and working at the wig place.

QUESTION: Once you arrived in Los Angeles, did you ever live with any girl?

ANSWER: There was a girl living with Dave at our place up Laurel Canyon and another girl — you mean all during the time I was living in California?

QUESTION: Yes.

ANSWER: And another girl, it was Dave’s girlfriend, and he went into the Army and I stayed with her a while too.

QUESTION: What was her name?

ANSWER: Rosina was her name.

QUESTION: How long did you live with Rosina?

ANSWER: I was staying with Rosina off and on at the same time with Dave’s brother and Drew and Lloyd; I guess that was kind of my central headquarters, was Rosina. That’s where my mailing address was.

QUESTION: Were you sexually involved with Rosina?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And Rosina was whose girl friend, now?

ANSWER: She was Dave’s.

QUESTION: The man who testified on your behalf —

ANSWER: Yeah, previously; and he went into the army.

QUESTION: Did you ever take it upon yourself to tell Dave that you were having intercourse with Rosina?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: What did he say?

ANSWER: He didn’t have any —

QUESTION: No objection?

ANSWER: No objection, no.

QUESTION: In early August of 1969, did you go to El Monte with Rosina and several other people?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And what was the purpose of your going to El Monte with Rosina and some others?

MR. KEITH: May we approach the bench, your Honor?

THE COURT: What time is this?

MR. KEITH: Early August, 1969.

THE COURT: Approach the bench.

(The following proceedings were had at the bench, out of the hearing of the jury)

MR. KEITH: Mr. Bugliosi is going into another offence involving a marijuana party — in other words, Mr. Watson took some money from a man named Crow for the purpose of getting some marijuana for Mr. Crow; and Mr. Watson did not deliver the marijuana, but kept the money. This type of evidence would be admissible, presumably, in the penalty phase; but I don’t believe it is material at this phase of the case, as showing — he is merely trying to show the bad character of the witness, No. 1, by the crimes, which are not germane to the murders in this case.

THE COURT: What is your offer of proof?

MR. BUGLIOSI: It is exactly what he said but let me point this out to the Court. The defense, their whole defense in the penalty trial was sympathy, calling the mother — that’s all done during the penalty phase — sympathy; he’s the All American boy, good grades, plays sports — if they can do it there on direct examination, on cross-examination, we can bring out to the jury that he is not as clean-cut a kid as he is claiming. It is not opening in in the form of impeachment of credibility as to whether he is telling the truth; it is coming in for telling the jury what kind of a character he is — they are the ones that brought this up — not just character, or for nonviolence, but claims for being a good guy, never getting in trouble, obeying the parents, working around the store, a member of the FFA —

THE COURT: This is long after he left the parents and long after he left the store.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, wait a minute; there is an incident in Texas where he was involved in the theft of some typewriters. I think I can bring this in; they are bringing in what a great guy he was back in Texas —

THE COURT: I don’t think you can bring it in The Evidence Code is very specific as to how a witness is to be impeached; and by specific instances of this kind, just to show his bad character or criminality, it is not admissible.

MR. BUGLIOSI: The other ones that have raised the issue on direct examination by showing his good character —

MR. BUBRICK: Not at all, your Honor.

MR. KAY: May I make one point on this, your Honor: On this incident that took place on August 1st, the marijuana, the second purpose we would be admitting this to show that Mr. Watson’s state of mind, around this time he was clear-thinking; there was around $2,000 involved in this marijuana purchase. Mr. Watson took the money from this Negro fellow, walked in the house and said he was going to get the marijuana and just walked out the back door with the $2,000.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Plus, your Honor, he is doing it on his own, which shows that around the time of the murders, he is thinking clearly; he is acting deceptively. The whole thrust of the defense is that he was a puppy dog around this time, couldn’t do anything on his own, wasn’t deceiving people — furthermore, I am going to — I don’t see how this stuff can help but come in during the guilt phase, when the psychiatrists take the stand —

THE COURT: We will worry about that then.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I am just saying that I think it is a consideration; it is not something that can’t come in during the guilt phase, but his state of mind around the time of the murders is extremely crucial, if he’s acting on his own — he has already testified he wasn’t even thinking around that time. If he acts on his own, deceiving people, taking money, not delivering what he promised to give, I think that is relevant.

THE COURT: I am sustaining the objection.

(The following proceedings were had in open court, in the hearing of the jury)

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When you were living at Dennis Wilson’s residence, who was supporting you?

ANSWER: While I was living at Dennis Wilson’s? We rented out our beach house for two months and I — we rented it out for $400 a month and we were paying $325 a month, and 1 made $160 — $160, I believe; and that’s what money I had.

QUESTION: Was Dennis giving you any money?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Or clothing?

ANSWER: We were wearing his clothing, yes.

QUESTION: Any food?

ANSWER: Yes, the food was delivered to the house. I remember each morning there’d be some food out on the front porch.

QUESTION: Did you ever take anything from Dennis without his telling you you could?

ANSWER: No, I did not

QUESTION: Did you meet Dean Moorehouse before or after you met Charles Manson?

ANSWER: On the same night.

QUESTION: Can you briefly describe Moorehouse’s philosophy — very briefly?

ANSWER: He was always preaching in the bible, out of the bible; and also the philosophy that Charles Manson had taught him or told him about being free, because, as he said, he had set his daughter free by giving her to Charles Manson; and the way you become free was to lose all your thought, and when you lose all your thought, you could submit entirely; and this was what love was, was giving, and this is about the philosophy.

QUESTION: What about the antiestablishment? Dean was quite a bit against the establishment, wasn’t he?

ANSWER: Not that much. He just brought up what the establishment — or, that they had thought and that this is what — that they had thought, and that love didn’t have any thought.

QUESTION: Well, Dean was kind of down on the establishment, wasn’t he?

ANSWER: No, he never was really down that such on the establishment,

QUESTION: Well, he told you he didn’t want to have anything to do with the establishment, right, he wanted to drop out?

ANSWER: Well, he was talking about no thoughts and that was the only thing the establishment had: thought.

QUESTION: Did he indicate to you — I am talking about Dean, now — the the establishment was headed for trouble?

ANSWER: I can’t recall anything like that,

QUESTION: Words to the effect that the establishment was on its way out; that a new order was going to take over?

ANSWER: No, I don’t believe he said anything about that.

QUESTION: You testified yesterday that Brenda and Squeaky and Sadie gave orders out at the ranch, those girls gave orders to the other girls; they did not give orders to the men; isn’t that correct?

ANSWER: Well, they didn’t give orders that much at all. What they did, they would just — they would do what Charlie said that all the women in the world did; and he said that the women over the world had the men all under their thumb, because — he called them witches, all the women were witches, because they had all the men working for them from 8:00 to 5:00 every day.

QUESTION: My question is: When Brenda and Squeaky and Sadie told people to do things, they were telling other girls in the family; is that correct?

ANSWER: They would tell other girls and also any guys that they could — that they were the older members of the family and they had got there when the family had started and they were more Charlie and had more of his way of life in their head.

QUESTION: Tex, you are not denying that the policy in the family was for the girls to do everything the men told them to do? You are not denying that, are you?

MR. BUBRICK: Argumentative, if your Honor please.

THE COURT: Objection to the form of the question sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: It was the policy, wasn’t it, Mr. Watson, that the girls did everything the men told them to do; isn’t that right?

ANSWER: Well, I know they did what Charlie told them to do.

QUESTION: They would do what you told them to do also; right?

ANSWER: I can remember the only thing that they would ever do for me is to wash the parts off because Charlie wanted them — wanted me to be working more on the dune buggies and not washing off parts and doing things that girls could do.

QUESTION: No girl ever told you what to do out at Spahn Ranch; isn’t that correct?

ANSWER: Not actually told, no.

QUESTION: You made love to all the girls in the family, didn’t you, Tex?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Most of them?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Some of them?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How many?

ANSWER: I would say probably our or five.

QUESTION: Wasn’t one of the big attractions that that family had for you was the fact that there was free love? Wasn’t that one of the big attractions?

ANSWER: That may have been one of the attractions but that was also one of my hangups, I guess you would say.

QUESTION: What do you mean by hangup?

ANSWER: Well, I just wasn’t a big love maker, you know, in a physical way.

QUESTION: You had a reputation of being very good with the women out there, didn’t you? Tex, don’t be embarrassed now.

ANSWER: Not that I know of, no. I did not have a reputation of being good with the woman.

QUESTION: You wanted to go to sleep with them right after you met them; isn’t that right?

ANSWER: No, that is not correct.

QUESTION: The first time you saw Linda, wasn’t it about three or four minutes later that you were making love to her?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: What was it about Linda that caused you to be so amorous?

ANSWER: Well, I guess the fact that she was a new girl there and that all the other girls, they kind of looked down upon me because they were all with the family before I was and they saw how straight I was when I first got there, and that was always in my mind and their mind too, I believe.

QUESTION: When did you first believe that Charles Manson was Jesus Christ?

ANSWER: All during the — while I knew him.

QUESTION: Do you still feel he is Jesus Christ?

ANSWER: I am totally away from Charlie now.

QUESTION: You don’t believe he is Jesus Christ any more?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: When did you stop believing that he was Jesus Christ?

ANSWER: It is kind of hard to say.

QUESTION: Approximately when? I don’t mean the exact moment.

ANSWER: Sometimes his world still pops into me and pops back out and I kind — but I would say I just don’t know when. I don’t have an approximate idea. I stay between the two worlds so much in the past, him and what I used to be, that I just don’t know.

QUESTION: How, by that you don’t believe he is Jesus any more?

ANSWER: No, but sometimes I have my doubts. I just don’t know — just like I am away from him now and I try to stay as far away as I can.

QUESTION: You have spoken to many psychiatrists since you have been brought out here from Texas; isn’t that right?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: And you told them about Manson and your relationship with him; isn’t that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Isn’t it true, Tex, that you never told one single psychiatrist that you thought Charles Manson was Jesus Christ; isn’t that true?

ANSWER: I might have used the word “Supreme Being” or “Christ” or Messiah,”

QUESTION: Are you saying now that you did tell psychiatrists that you thought maybe he was a supreme being? Is that what your testimony is?

ANSWER: No. I really can’t recall.

QUESTION: You never told one; isn’t that right, Tex?

ANSWER: I don’t know.

QUESTION: Isn’t it true, Tex, that you along with some other members of the family never thought that Manson was Christ?

ANSWER: No. That was one of the big things, that he was a perfect supreme being, a Christ, yes.

QUESTION: He was a father figure to you, wasn’t he, Tex?

ANSWER: I really don’t know why I stuck to him like that, you know.

QUESTION: Did you tell the psychiatrists that you had kind of a weak father and Charlie represented kind of a strong father image to you?

ANSWER: No, not to that effect, no.

QUESTION: In November I believe you said of 1968 you left Manson, is that correct, and you went to Mr. Neal?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Went to live with Mr. Neal?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: In Highland Park?

ANSWER: I believe that is what it is or Pasadena-like area, you know.

QUESTION: Did you tell Charlie you were leaving?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: How did you happen to leave? What were the circumstances surrounding your leaving?

ANSWER: I came back down, from north in the school bus and I had been away from Charlie for a little while, because he sent us up to the candy man to get candy and I came back down and I called David and I told him that I was just losing myself and that —

QUESTION: What were the physical circumstances surrounding your leaving? Did you pack up your belongings and get in the car and drive away?

ANSWER: I had no belongings, no.

QUESTION: How did you happen to leave the ranch? Did you tell anyone?

ANSWER: No, I did not. I hitch-hiked away from the bus. I wasn’t at the ranch at that time.

QUESTION: Where were you?

ANSWER: The bus was parked down in Topanga Canyon.

QUESTION: This one time in November of 1968 that you left him and you went to live with David Neal, you say you called Manson and he convinced you to come back?

ANSWER: Repeat that one more time again.

QUESTION: This one time in November you went to live with David Neal, November of 1968; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Then after that a month or two after you say Charlie, or you got in touch with Charlie by calling him at the ranch.

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: This one time in November you went to live with David Neal in November of 1968; isn’t that right?

ANSWER: Yes, that is right.

QUESTION: And then after that, a month or two, you say Charlie — or you got in touch with Charlie by calling him at the ranch.

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: And he convinced you to come back to him?

ANSWER: He asked me to come out, yes.

QUESTION: He didn’t threaten you in any fashion whatsoever, did he?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: You went back voluntarily; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: Do you believe that there is an imminent revolution between blacks and whites, Tex? In other words, there is going to be a war, a civil war between blacks and whites very soon? Do you believe that?

ANSWER: I really don’t know what to believe right now

QUESTION: Do you still entertain that thought in your mind at all?

ANSWER: I just don’t know what to believe. I am rather confused in a lot of ways.

QUESTION: Did you ever study the bible back in Texas?

ANSWER: Yes. I went to church and read the bible but not that much.

QUESTION: Did you read the Book of Revelations back in Texas?

ANSWER: I knew nothing about Revelations.

QUESTION: On the night of the Tate murders, Tex, when you left the Spahn Ranch in John Swartz’s car, you knew that you were going to Terry Melcher’s former residence and kill everyone inside the residence; right?

ANSWER: Yes. I knew where I was going. I was going up to the —

QUESTION: So you knew that the mission was murder before you even left Spahn Ranch; is that right?

ANSWER: I really had no thought of what even murder was.

QUESTION: You knew that the mission was going to kill these people; is that correct?

ANSWER: I had no thought. I was just doing what Charlie told me to do.

QUESTION: You knew you weren’t going to the Tate residence to play Canasta, didn’t you, Tex?

ANSWER: I had no thought.

QUESTION: Have you ever heard of Canasta?

ANSWER: Yes, I have.

QUESTION: You have heard of volleyball?

ANSWER: Yes, I have.

QUESTION: You weren’t going there to do those things, were you?

ANSWER: I had no thought of what I was doing.

QUESTION: What was that knife in your hand for?

ANSWER: It was put there by Mr. Manson.

QUESTION: What were you going to do with that knife?

ANSWER: I was told to kill everybody in the house with it.

QUESTION: Now the word “kill” comes out, not Canasta; right, Tex, kill?

THE COURT: Just a moment. Change your form of examination, Mr. Bugliosi.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Isn’t it true, Tex, that no matter how many people were inside that residence, you were going to kill them?

ANSWER: I was told by Mr. Manson to make sure everybody was dead.

QUESTION: Talking about your state of mind now. Isn’t it true that no matter who was inside that residence, you were going to kill them?

ANSWER: I was told to, yes.

QUESTION: Not talking about what you were told, Tex. I am talking about after you were told by Mr. Manson, it was your state of mind that no matter who was inside that residence, you were going to kill them; right?

ANSWER: Yes, I believe so.

QUESTION: If there were 10 people inside, you would have killed 10 people; isn’t that right, Tex?

ANSWER: I guess I would; that’s what I was told to do, make sure everybody was dead, as gruesome as possible, yes.

QUESTION: What would you have done, Tex, if you arrived at the Tate residence and you saw a squad of police cars at the scene? What would you have done then, would you want to turn around and go back to Charlie?

MR. BUBRICK: I think that in objectionable, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: On the following night, at the time you left Spahn Ranch, you knew at that time that you were going to go out and kill; isn’t that right?

ANSWER: I was really blank, without any thoughts.

QUESTION: How did you know what to do, if you never had any thought in your mind, Tex?

ANSWER: Well, I was being run by Mr. Manson.

QUESTION: So he put the thought in your mind, then; right?

ANSWER: That’s the only thought I had.

QUESTION: So you did have a thought in your mind, and that thought was to go out and kill; is that right?

ANSWER: I had a thought of Mr. Manson, yes.

QUESTION: You weren’t going to kill Mr. Manson, though, were you?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you ever take drugs out at Spahn Ranch without telling Charlie about it? I believe you testified that he was the dispenser of the drugs, or he would dispense them through the girls; is that right?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: So you were afraid, then, to take drugs without Charlie knowing about it; would that be correct?

ANSWER: No, sometimes I did take drugs without him knowing about it.

QUESTION: I believe the Tate murders — what is called the Tate murders — these are the killings, Tex, took place on the Cielo address —

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: — took place in the early morning hours of August 9th, which would be a Saturday. Now, you left Spahn Ranch on a Friday. Are you with me on that?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Friday night.

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Now, the previous night would be August the 7th; that would be a Thursday night; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, Thursday, Friday and Saturday; right.

QUESTION: Now, did you take speed on August the 7th

ANSWER: I was taking —

QUESTION: — Thursday night?

ANSWER: I was taking speed most every day for about the last month or two there.

QUESTION: So you took speed, then, on the evening of August the 7th?

ANSWER: Yes, I stayed up all night, I believe, that night.

QUESTION: Did you tell Charlie that you had taken the speed?

ANSWER: Why we were taking speed was to be able to stay up and work on dune buggies, but I never hardly worked on dune buggies, I was so high all the time.

QUESTION: My question is, when you took the speed on August the 7th, that a Thursday —

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you tell Charlie that you had taken the speed, or did he know that you had taken the speed?

ANSWER: I can’t recall.

QUESTION: Was Charlie in the vicinity when you took the speed?

ANSWER: He was always around the ranch, but I don’t recall that particular time.

QUESTION: You were up all night?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: This would be going to early morning, then, the early morning of Friday morning; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: And where were you on the ranch that night?

ANSWER: I was at the waterfall; I ended up at the waterfall.

QUESTION: Did you see Charlie at all that night?

ANSWER: Yes, he was at the waterfall sleeping, and I had heard he was on belladonna, you know. I didn’t know.

QUESTION: Did you talk to Charlie that night?

ANSWER: I really don’t recall that much.

QUESTION: But you saw him sleeping?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Was he sleeping with anyone?

ANSWER: There was a lot of people sleeping, you know, out in the open; I can’t recall if he — if he, you know, had anybody beside him or not.

QUESTION: Just so we don’t have any confusion here, Tex, August the 7th, that’s a Thursday; August the 8th is a Friday; August the 9th, Saturday; August the 10th, a Sunday. You took speed on August the 7th, a Thursday; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, I was taking a lot of speed all during that month.

QUESTION: And you were up all night?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: So you were up in the early morning hours of Friday; August the 8th; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, right at the time between daylight and dark.

QUESTION: All right. At the waterfall?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s correct.

QUESTION: And you say you saw Charlie sleeping?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Daylight

ANSWER: No, not

QUESTION: Dusk — not dusk; but dawn?

ANSWER: It was kind of in between, I remember.

QUESTION: You also took some belladonna on August the 8th, a Friday?

ANSWER: Early in the morning, yes.

QUESTION: Again, early morning, August 8th, a Friday?

ANSWER: Right, yes.

QUESTION: Did Charlie know that you took the belladonna?

ANSWER: I’m not for sure; like I went out on the belladonna and I don’t know what Charlie knew then.

QUESTION: Did you tell him you had taken belladonna?

ANSWER: No, I did not tell him that.

QUESTION: What would you say, Tex, if I told you Charles Manson wasn’t even in Los Angeles in the early morning hours of August the 8th?

MR. KEITH: Objection, your Honor.

MR. BUBRICK: I’d object to that, your Honor.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I can ask him that.

THE COURT: Sustained.

THE WITNESS: Do I answer the question?

MR. BUBRICK: No.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Are you aware, Tex, that Charles Manson was not in Los Angeles the early morning hours of August 8th?

MR. BUBRICK: Assumes facts not in evidence, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: So on the night of the Tate murders, Tex, you had belladonna, speed and LSD in your system; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, that would be correct.

QUESTION: Did you have anything else in your system?

ANSWER: Nope; I can’t recall of anything.

QUESTION: Do you recall a doctor by the name of Dr. Frank?

ANSWER: I have talked to so many, I couldn’t tell you.

QUESTION: This doctor’s first name is Ira Frank; he interviewed you in March and April of 1971 out at UCLA. Do you remember that doctor?

ANSWER: I’m sure he did.

QUESTION: Do you remember telling him that you also took cocaine?

ANSWER: No, I do not recall that.

QUESTION: Do you recall being interviewed by a Dr. Bohr, B-o-h-r, in May of 1971?

ANSWER: As I said, I have been by a lot of doctors, and I do recall hearing that name, though.

QUESTION: Do you recall that the only drug you told him you had taken was belladonna on the night of the Tate murders?

ANSWER: No, I don’t recall that.

QUESTION: Tex, why don’t you admit to these folks on the jury that you had no drugs in your system on the night of the Tate murders?

MR. KEITH: Objection —

MR. BUBRICK: Objection, if your Honor please.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The jury will disregard that question entirely.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You testified, I believe, Tex, that whenever you took belladonna you had blackouts and hallucinations; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: This is your testimony yesterday; do you remember that?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: And how long would a bad trip normally take?

ANSWER: It just depended on — are you talking about the whole trip from start to finish?

QUESTION: Well, from the time the bad effect first took effect upon your body until it no longer was having any effect?

ANSWER: I’d say about 10 days or a week.

QUESTION: And you’d have blackouts and hallucinations during this period of time?

ANSWER: No, not the whole period of time, no.

QUESTION: But off and on during that period?

ANSWER: No, not during the first part of the trip you would black out and then if someone woke you up or something, you could get up and run around earlier; but if no one woke you up, you’d just stay out for a while longer, but —

QUESTION: When would you have these hallucinations?

ANSWER: You’d have hallucinations while you were out; and then the first part of it after you woke up, for a while, and then the rest of the time you’d just be kind of in a daze and being able to see the wind blow and being able to see a lot of things; and a lot of things out of the corners of your eyes.

QUESTION: On the night of the Tate murders, did you have any blackouts?

ANSWER: I was halfway in between and halfway — I was kind of half and half.

QUESTION: How would you define a blackout?

ANSWER: A total blackout would be going out all the way and not seeing anything; and then — that’s what I would describe as a blackout.

QUESTION: Do you recall telling Dr. Bailey that you had blackouts at the time of the murder?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you in fact have blackouts?

ANSWER: I was halfway in between and halfway — sometimes you go out, blackout, and sometimes you are light again and sometimes you are just floating between the two.

QUESTION: During the blackout, do you know what you are doing?

ANSWER: During a blackout, you are out and you do things that you don’t know you are doing, actually.

QUESTION: You didn’t have any blackout when you were stabbing these people?

ANSWER: When I was stabbing them?

QUESTION: Right. At the time you were plunging your knife into their bodies, you didn’t have a blackout at that time, did you?

ANSWER: Like I said, I was kind of halfway in between black and light, most of the time.

QUESTION: Does belladonna tend to give you a lot of energy?

ANSWER: It gives you a tremendous amount of energy, so much energy that it is just unreal, you know.

QUESTION: And speed also gives you energy; right?

ANSWER: Speed? I don’t know about the energy, it gives you energy, but it more or less puts you in a buzzing state of mind, where you are just — I forget what the word is — you are wired like on speed.

QUESTION: Full of electricity?

ANSWER: Yes, electricity, too.

QUESTION: Wide awake?

ANSWER: It depends on when you take it. If you take it after a belladonna trip, to bring you up on the belladonna, you wouldn’t be as awake as if you just take speed by itself. When you take speed itself, you are just buzzing. You are not really — you are awake but you are just buzzing, kind of like a machine or something.

QUESTION: If belladonna gives you all this energy and speed tends to speed you up and makes you feel like buzzing around, how come, according to you, you claim you were sleeping in the back seat of the Tate car — I mean the back seat of the Swartz car on the way to the Tate residence?

ANSWER: Belladonna gives you energy but it also relaxes you so much that you are —

QUESTION: I see.

THE COURT: Let him answer the question, please.

THE WITNESS: You haven’t got any — you can’t tell but your muscles, really. It relaxes you so that your muscles seem tender and your body, you can look at your body and you are just muscle and bone and then when you grab a hold of something, it just seems like you can break it in two and you don’t even realize you are doing it.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: So although belladonna gives you a lot of energy and speed makes you feel like buzzing around, on the night of the Tate murders you were fast asleep in the back seat of the car, is that correct, Tex?

ANSWER: You can go to sleep and then when you awake, if somebody shakes you or waken you up or something, you are buzzing, yes.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I think this might be a convenient time.

THE COURT: Very well. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will recess at this time until 1:30. Please, again heed the usual admonition.

(Whereupon, the jury was excused and the following proceedings took place in the judge’s chambers)

THE COURT: Let the record show we are in the chambers outside of the presents of the jury. Go ahead.

MR. BUGLIOSI: The court has permitted an incredibly wide latitude on direct examination. Of course, I don’t have to state the law that cross-examination is always more broad than direct. You can ask leading questions on cross-examination and not that the court is going to change, but I want the court to know that I am kind of disturbed. I feel that you are limiting cross-examination to an unreasonable standpoint. If you can’t ask a witness whether he is lying on the witness stand, and if it is necessary that you have to ask him every single question did he lie on that question — I don’t quite understand. His state of mind is very relevant on the witness stand, whether he is telling the truth or telling a lie and if I raise my voice a little bit, you tell me to go onto another subject. This is cross-examination and seven people are dead here and I don’t quite understand the court’s position. The court was very liberal on direct.

THE COURT: I will make my position very clear. Whether seven or seventy people are dead, a witness is entitled to the same protection, whether he is a witness or a defendant, and the prosecution is limited to asking proper questions on cross-examination.

MR. BUGLIOSI: All right.

THE COURT: When I believe on your examination the question is improper, I am going to sustain an objection. Now, I never heard a question like you asked: “Why don’t you admit to this jury that you had no drugs in you the night of the Tate murder?”

MR. BUGLIOSI: I have asked it many times and I have heard it asked many times by defense attorneys and prosecutors. You have been on the bench and you have been a lawyer 10 times longer than I have, or five times —

THE COURT: I never heard that question and in my court if that is asked I am going to admonish the jury to disregard it, see, and when you try to bring in acts of his conduct other than prior convictions, just for the purpose of showing that he is of bad character, I am going to stop you from doing so.

MR. BUGLIOSI: The defense, your Honor, during direct examination tried to show that he is a good boy.

THE COURT: Did you object once?

MR. BUGLIOSI: I think it is admissible, just like I feel these other things are admissible,

THE COURT: I don’t think that other offenses are admissible.

MR. BUGLIOSI: If they are being brought in to show lack of credibility, but we want to show the type of guy he is. The picture that they painted is an all-American boy from Texas, never did anything wrong, Now, I think if they do that on direct, and I think they can, I think it is proper on cross-examination. We have the right to show that he is not an all-American boy.

THE COURT: By proper questions you may do so, but if I think they are proper I will allow them and if I think they are improper I will sustain the objection.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: I have no love for this kid or any other person charged with murder, but it is my duty to protect him as well as any other witness that takes that stand.

MR. BUGLIOSI: There is no question about that but I feel that on cross-examination it is different than on direct.

THE COURT: You have a wide latitude on cross-examination but it must be within the realm of proper cross-examination. There is nothing personal in this case at all, Mr. Bugliosi, so far as you and I are concerned.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Oh, of course not.

THE COURT: And nothing personal. I will rule as I think I should rule.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I am not even suggesting that, of course not. I am just saying that I feel that the court thus far has been overly restrictive on cross-examination. That is all I am saying.

THE COURT: I am sorry you feel that way. That is the way I rule.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Thanks, Judge.

(The noon recess was taken until 1:30 p.m. of the same day.)

THE COURT: People against Watson. Let the record show all jurors are present; all counsel and the defendant are present.

THE CLERK: You have been previously sworn.

CHARLES WATSON,
resumed the stand and testified further as follows

THE CLERK: Would you restate your name for the record.

THE WITNESS: Charles Watson.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) BY MR. BUGLIOSI:

QUESTION: Tex, this is the rope that was tied around Sharon Tate’s neck. You have never seen this rope before?

ANSWER: I know we had a rope similar to that out at the ranch.

QUESTION: Now, you recall Linda Kasabian’s testimony that you were carrying this rope over your shoulder when you walked up towards the Tate residence; do you know that?

MR. KEITH: Object to the question.

MR. BUBRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Is that truthful?

ANSWER: What do I do, do I answer?

THE COURT: Did you carry that over your shoulder?

THE WITNESS: Do I recall Linda saying that?

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: No, Linda did testify to that. Did you, in fact, carry the rope over your shoulder?

ANSWER: No I did not.

QUESTION: You never saw any rope on the night of the Tate murders; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: You have no way of knowing — you have no knowledge of how Sharon Tate had a rope tied around her neck?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: And you have no knowledge of how Jay Sebring had a rope tied around his neck?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Going back just a moment to this Olancha incident, Tex, your mother testified you were six feet two inches; is that how tall you are?

ANSWER: Six feet? I have been measured at five eleven and three-quarters and then I have been measured, I think, at six two. I don’t really know where it is in there, though.

QUESTION: Do you recall that you told Deputy Cox that you were six feet?

ANSWER: I don’t know that I told him that; I don’t recall it, you know.

QUESTION: Now, I believe you testified that on the evening of the 8th Manson called you to the car and told you to go to Terry Melcher’s former residence; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: And he told you to cut the wires and after the murders to wash the blood off and throw the clothing away, and then come back to the ranch; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Now, as you said, Tex, you have been interviewed by several psychiatrists; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: And you told them about these two nights of murder; is that right?

ANSWER: The best I can recall, yes.

QUESTION: And when you spoke to them did you lie to any of them about anything?

ANSWER: No, I told them how it was to me when they talked to me.

QUESTION: How come, Tex, you never told any of the psychiatrists who interviewed you that Manson told you to cut the telephone wires and to wash the blood off and throw the clothing away? How come you never told one single psychiatrist that?

ANSWER: I thought I told them that. Like I say, I don’t know what I told them exactly.

QUESTION: It is your present belief that you did tell them that?

ANSWER: To my best knowledge, that is what Mr. Manson told me, you know; so I presume I told them that, yes.

QUESTION: Isn’t it true, Tex, that the only thing that Manson told you to do was go up there and kill these people; and it was your idea to cut the telephone wires?

ANSWER: No, that is not true.

QUESTION: And throw away the clothing?

ANSWER: No, that is not true.

QUESTION: Did either Linda or Katie or Sadie tell you that they had been to the Tate residence before — when l say “the Tate residence,” I mean the residence on Cielo Drive. Did they indicate they had ever been there before?

ANSWER: I didn’t have any conversation with them, you know, on the way over. I don’t know; I never heard them say that, no.

QUESTION: Did you get the impression that they had been there before?

ANSWER: I did not really get any impression on the way over.

QUESTION: You had a valid driver’s license in 1969, didn’t you?

ANSWER: Up until the time I threw them away, yes.

QUESTION: Until the time when?

ANSWER: I threw them away.

QUESTION: But it was a valid driver’s license?

ANSWER: Yes, uh-huh.

QUESTION: Why didn’t you drive to the Tate residence?

ANSWER: Because I had no driver’s license.

QUESTION: But you ended up driving back to the Spahn Ranch. Why did you drive back to the Spahn Ranch then?

ANSWER: I didn’t drive back to the Spahn Ranch.

QUESTION: Did you drive at all that night?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Why did you drive at all?

ANSWER: I don’t know why. There wasn’t any question at that stage it didn’t seem like.

QUESTION: Now, you claim that you were in the back seat of the car and Linda drove; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Did you give Linda directions on how to get to the Cielo address?

ANSWER: No, I did not

QUESTION: Do you have any idea how she found her way there, Tex?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: What girl’s lap did you allegedly fall asleep in?

ANSWER: Sometimes I think it was Sadie and sometimes I think it was Katie, so I am not really that sure about that.

QUESTION: Did you dream anything while you were asleep in her lap?

ANSWER: I can recall having lots of dreams, you know.

QUESTION: What were you dreaming?

ANSWER: I can’t recall what I was dreaming. I can’t recall.

QUESTION: This Dr. Frank over here, Ira Frank, you have seen him before?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: The man in the yellow sport coat?

ANSWER: Yes, right.

QUESTION: Didn’t you tell him that when you were going to the Tate residence you kept hearing Charlie telling you to go inside and kill everyone? Didn’t you tell that man that?

ANSWER: I believe I told him that when I first killed or when I was shooting the first guy I was hearing Charlie’s voices and seeing him like I was seeing his face and like was his face. I was him.

QUESTION: Didn’t you tell Dr. Frank: “As we drove along I could hear Charlie’s voice inside my head computing what he had said, ‘Go up to the house where Terry Melcher used to live and kill them, cut them up, hang them on the rafters.” Didn’t you tell that doctor that?

ANSWER: I could have.

QUESTION: Now, you don’t remember what your dreams were about?

ANSWER: No. l know that I just kept hearing Charlie’s voices and seeing his face, you know, and feeling like I was him.

QUESTION: In your dreams?

ANSWER: Well, during that period of time l was kind of messed up then.

QUESTION: Actually you were driving the car, right, Tex?

ANSWER: No. That is not correct.

QUESTION: Do you recall Linda testified that on the way to the Tate residence you told her to wrap the knife and the revolver up and if a police officer stopped you to throw the knife and the revolver out the window. Do you recall Linda testifying to that?

ANSWER: Yes. l recall her saying that.

QUESTION: Do you deny that?

ANSWER: Yes, l do.

QUESTION: She also testified, Tex, that on the way to the Tate residence you told her, that is Linda, Kate and Sadie, that you had been to the residence before, that you knew the layout and you told them to everything that you told them to do. Do you deny that you told them that?

ANSWER: Yes, do.

QUESTION: You had a pair of blue jeans on the night of the murders, Tex?

ANSWER: Yes. That is what I was wearing all that time out at the ranch.

QUESTION: What type of top were you wearing?

ANSWER: I am not real for sure. I do believe it was black.

QUESTION: How come you were dressed in black clothing this night? Any particular reasons?

ANSWER: I remember the girls they had bought a lot of dark clothes at Sears & Roebuck, I believe, and that is what we were wearing during that time, a lot of dark clothes, creepy crawling and stuff like that Charlie called it.

QUESTION: Creepy crawl so that you wouldn’t get caught?

ANSWER: No, in experiencing fear and he was taking the fear out of us, out of our heads until we had no fear.

QUESTION: But when you went creepy crawling you didn’t want the people to know that you were creeping around their homes; right?

ANSWER: No. It was just that, taking the fear out and not having any thought.

QUESTION: I know all about that but you didn’t want people to know that you were creeping around their homes; isn’t that right?

ANSWER: That thought never occurred.

QUESTION: That is not the reason why you had the dark clothing on? To avoid being seen.

ANSWER: No, that was — no.

QUESTION: Okay. Next, I don’t know what you were wearing that night because I wasn’t there, but let me show you some of the clothing that was found over the side of the hill and you tell the judge and jury if any of these pieces of clothing were yours. Here is people’s 51 for identification. Were you wearing those pants?

ANSWER: I think I could have been wearing those or the black pants. I am not for sure which ones.

QUESTION: These black pants right here?

ANSWER: Yes, one of the two.

QUESTION: Do these look like the pair you were wearing that night, the pair of pants?

ANSWER: Like I say, it is one of the two, I believe.

THE COURT: What exhibit is that, Mr. Bugliosi?

MR. BUGLIOSI: The black pants are People’s 53, your Honor.

QUESTION: Tex, there was testimony that these blue jeans had a waist size of 30. Was that your waist size around the time of these murders?

ANSWER: I didn’t really know my waist size, but I feel that that was about it.

MR. BUGLIOSI: These blue jeans, for the record, again, are People’s 51 for identification.

QUESTION: And I believe that Mr. Granado testified that these black pants here had a waist size of around 24 or 25. You couldn’t have been wearing that; these would a little too small for you, I believe?

ANSWER: If they are that small, they would be.

QUESTION: Let’s take a look at the tops. Do you recognize that black T-shirt; were you wearing that that night?

ANSWER: We had black T-shirts. I know the girls had boxes of new black T-shirts, but —

QUESTION: Do you recognize this black T-shirt?

THE COURT: What exhibit is that, sir?

MR. BUGLIOSI: This is People’s 52.

THE WITNESS: There were black T-shirts like that, yes.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Is this the T-shirt you were wearing on the night of the Tate murders?

ANSWER: I’m not for sure.

QUESTION: I show you People’s 54: looks like a purple T-shirt. Do you recognize that T-shirt as being a shirt that you may have had on that night?

ANSWER: I could have had on any of the shirts, I feel.

QUESTION: What about the black velour pullover, People’s 50 for identification; is this your article of clothing?

ANSWER: I could have been wearing it, too. Like, we had just piles of clothes; I really can’t tell.

QUESTION: Here’s a white shirt, Tex, People’s 53. Were you wearing a T-shirt beneath the dark clothing at night?

ANSWER: Not that I can recall, no.

QUESTION: You’ll notice that there is a lot of blood on these items of clothing — none of the blood was your blood, was it, Tex?

ANSWER: I’m not for sure; I know I had

QUESTION: Go ahead.

ANSWER: I had a cut hand, yes.

QUESTION: You did cut your hand that night?

ANSWER: Yes, my hand was cut.

QUESTION: What, a particular finger or what?

ANSWER: No, my hand, in here.

QUESTION: Was it a deep scratch or what?

ANSWER: Yes, pretty deep.

QUESTION: Did it hurt quite a bit?

ANSWER: No, I never did really feel it, you know.did

QUESTION: Didn’t bother you too much; right?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t have a lot of feeling for a while.

QUESTION: The “bottomless pit,” here, Tex; it is coming out.

MR. BUBRICK: A bottomless bag, Mr, Bugliosi.

MR. BUGLIOSI: What?

MR. BUBRICK: A bottomless bag.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes.

QUESTION: So, everyone was dressed in dark clothing: You, Linda, Katie and Sadie; right?

ANSWER: Yes. I was dressed in dark clothing.

QUESTION: This knife that you had, you say it had a metal handle?

ANSWER: The best I can remember, it was just a piece of metal.

QUESTION: Do you remember how long the blade was?

ANSWER: No, I don’t.

QUESTION: Do you have any idea how long it was?

ANSWER: No, I really don’t. I know it was just a blade, you know.

QUESTION: It wasn’t a pocketknife, was it?

ANSWER: No, it was a regular knife, seems like.

QUESTION: And it wasn’t thin, like a kitchen knife wan it; it was kind of thick?

ANSWER: It was a regular knife, you know.

QUESTION: But, I mean, it was a thick knife; it wasn’t very thin?

ANSWER: I really didn’t know that much about the knife that I had.

QUESTION: Do you know how wide it was?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: You used to carry a knife around with you all the time out at Spahn Ranch, didn’t you?

ANSWER: Not all the time.

QUESTION: Quite a bit?

ANSWER: I remember Charlie bought some knives and he gave them to all the guys and girls; but I lost mine, remember, and I didn’t carry one anymore.

QUESTION: When you had the knife did you used to throw it into wooden doors, practicing?

ANSWER: We would throw them at the haystacks sometimes.

QUESTION: This telephone pole that you climbed up, how did you climb up the pole; were there any steps or was there a ladder there, or how did you get up the pole?

ANSWER: I don’t recall how I got on the pole. That is not too clear, but I know that I was on the steps of the pole.

QUESTION: There were steps on the pole?

ANSWER: Yes, I was on the steps of the pole.

QUESTION: The first step was about six feet from the ground, wasn’t it, Tex?

ANSWER: It was high off the ground, yes.

QUESTION: How did you get on that first step?

ANSWER: I’m not for sure how I got on it,

QUESTION: You climbed up there; right?

ANSWER: I’m not for sure how I got up there.

QUESTION: Then you climbed to the top of the pole?

ANSWER: Well, after I got on the steps, I had to get on top of the pole to cut the wires; I guess I did.

QUESTION: These wirecutters here, Defendant’s Exhibit WD, they are pretty heavy, aren’t they, Tex? Do you want to hold them? They are pretty heavy, aren’t they?

ANSWER: They are pretty heavy.

QUESTION: You carried these with you to the top of the pole?

ANSWER: That’s what I cut the wires with.

QUESTION: You were pretty strong on the night of the Tate murders, weren’t you, Tex?

ANSWER: Off and on.

QUESTION: Off and on? What do you mean by that?

ANSWER: Sometimes I was strong and sometimes I wasn’t strong.

QUESTION: Wero you strong when you were killing these people?

ANSWER: There really wasn’t any strength. I meant, didn’t recognise strength at that time.

QUESTION: Well, you said you were pretty strong off and on; what did you mean by that?

ANSWER: Well, sometimes I felt that I guess I meant kind of dark and light; that’s about the only way I can describe it.

QUESTION: From the outside of the front gate of the Tate residence by the telephone pole you can’t really see — you can’t really see the Tate residence, can you, Tex? When you were out here by the telephone poles you can’t see the Tate residence, can you? You have been there now several times; there is a lot of trees and high bushes preventing a person from the telephone pole seeing the residence; isn’t that right?

ANSWER: I think you are right.

QUESTION: When the girls, as you claim, told you to cut the telephone wires, did you ask them how they knew that these were the telephone wires that led to the Tate residence? Did you ask them, “How do you know that this is the telephone pole?”

ANSWER: I didn’t ask any questions.

QUESTION: Didn’t it strike you rather strange that they would know which telephone pole had wires that led to the Tate residence, when you can’t even see the Tate residence from the telephone pole?

ANSWER: I never asked any questions; I just climbed the pole.

QUESTION: Well, the reason you didn’t ask any questions, Tex, isn’t the real reason that it was your idea to cut those telephone wires and no one said boo to you about doing it?

ANSWER: No, that is not correct.

QUESTION: You had been to the Cielo address about three or four times?

ANSWER: About three I can remember, I think.

QUESTION: What were the occasions for your going up there three times? You said one time there was a party that ended up at the Tate residence?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t go on that time.

QUESTION: What were the occasions for your going up to the Cielo address?

ANSWER: One time was with Dean Moorehouse — and maybe two times with Dean Moorehouse, I’m not for sure about that; and another time was when I went up — Greg Jakobson was in jail and Charlie asked me to go up and ask Terry if he would give me the money to go bail Greg out of jail, so that I went up there then; and that’s the only time that I recall besides going up there with Dean.

QUESTION: So there were three occasions?

ANSWER: I believe that is correct.

QUESTION: And on all three occasions you actually entered the home?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: So you were familiar with the inside of the home; right?

ANSWER: I had been in the front room and the breakfast room.

QUESTION: Isn’t that why you told Katie, Sadie and Linda that you knew the layout; isn’t that why?

ANSWER: No.

MR. KEITH: Move to strike the answer for the purpose of an objection. It assumes facts not in evidence.

THE COURT: But he answered, he said, “No.”

MR. BUGLIOSI: There is evidence of that. Linda Kasabian’s testimony.

THE COURT: You cannot impeach him by what Linda said, though.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I can ask him about it.

QUESTION: Tex, were you ever inside the residence at the Cielo address when other people came to the residence after you? Were you ever inside when shortly thereafter other people came to the residence, when other people entered after you?

ANSWER: I can’t be sure of that at all.

QUESTION: So you had no way of knowing then if a sound was made inside the residence when someone pressed the button by the telephone pole? You had no way of knowing that; right?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t know anything about that.

QUESTION: Is that the reason why, Tex, you didn’t press the button by the telephone pole because you didn’t know whether the people inside could hear you?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Out the night of the Tate murders?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Why did you climb around the gate? You knew how to enter the residence and the premises by pressing that button. Why did you bother climbing around the gate?

ANSWER: That is where we ended up and started over the fence and that is the way I went over.

QUESTION: But on the three prior occasions you had entered the premises by pressing the button by the telephone pole; right?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: And the gate opened and you entered; right?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: But you didn’t think about doing it that night?

ANSWER: No. There was just no thought of any of that.

QUESTION: Did you have any trouble climbing around the fence?

ANSWER: I remember starting over and I kind of fell back down but I eventually got over.

QUESTION: Were you staggering around that night, Tex?

ANSWER: Off and on I was. I felt I was, but I am not for sure.

QUESTION: How were you able to kill five people if you were in such bad condition, Tex?

ANSWER: I can’t explain the drug, you know, l can’t.

QUESTION: Is the explanation that you were not in bad condition?

ANSWER: I was in condition — I can’t describe, I don’t know how to describe it.

QUESTION: I believe you testified yesterday that after you climbed around the front gate a car approached; is that right?

ANSWER: Yes, I remember seeing some headlights.

QUESTION: And you went up to the car and you shot the man?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: I believe you testified yesterday that none of the girls said anything at that point. You just went on your own and shot the man; right?

ANSWER: I remember hearing one of the girls say something about, “We’ve got to get them all,” or something like that but that is about all I remember hearing.

QUESTION: Didn’t you testify yesterday that you heard the girls say this before the automobile incident; isn’t that what you testified to yesterday?

ANSWER: l don’t believe so, no. I don’t know.

QUESTION: May l have just a moment. Directing your attention to page 3,132 of the transcript, would you read lines 9 through 17 to yourself. Read them silently to yourself.

ANSWER: Starting with 9.

QUESTION: Yes, line 9 through 17. Have you read those lines to yourself?

ANSWER: Yes, I have.

QUESTION: Did you testify in answer to these questions:

QUESTION: Did you know who was in the car?

ANSWER: No, I just knew that Charlie, you know, like I would see and hear him, hear his voice like, and to kill everybody in the piece; and I remember one of the girls did say something about, “We got to get everybody,” or something to that effect.

QUESTION: Was this before or after you saw the headlights of the car?

ANSWER: This was before we saw the headlights of the car.”

MR. BUGLIOSI: There is a word in line 16 after “we saw.”

MR. KAY: “Before I saw the headlights of the car.”

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: “This was before we saw — I saw the headlights of the car.” Didn’t you testify yesterday that this girl said, “We’ve got to get everybody” before you saw the headlights on the car?

ANSWER: Well, now I say that she said it when the car pulled up. That is when.

QUESTION: The fact is that what happened, when you saw the car approach, you told the three girls to get back into the bushes and then you went out and shot the man and they didn’t say anything to you; isn’t that the truth?

ANSWER: No, that is not true.

QUESTION: How many times did you shoot this man?

ANSWER: I am not really for sure how many times I shot him.

QUESTION: Where did you shoot him?

ANSWER: I didn’t really see where I was shooting. I just —

QUESTION: You weren’t just shooting blindly, were you? You were aiming, weren’t you?

ANSWER: No; I wasn’t aiming.

QUESTION: When you shot Steven Parent are you telling this jury that you never aimed the muzzle of this revolver at him? Is that what you are telling this jury?

ANSWER: I put it in the window of the car and I started pulling the trigger.

QUESTION: And you had no idea of what you were going to hit?

ANSWER: That thought didn’t occur —

QUESTION: It just happened before the bullet —

THE COURT: Let him finish.

THE WITNESS: I was just shooting at the thing that was there.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Oh, the thing that was there. It was not a human being?

ANSWER: I didn’t have any thought of human beings.

QUESTION: Did you aim at the thing that was there?

ANSWER: Like I said I just stuck the gun toward it. I don’t know if you call it an aim or what.

QUESTION: You shot him one time right in the head, didn’t you, Tex?

ANSWER: I don’t know. I don’t know where I shot him.

QUESTION: Before you shot him did he say anything to you?

ANSWER: I can’t recall. I didn’t hear anything.

QUESTION: Didn’t he say “Please don’t hurt me. I won’t say anything to anyone.” Isn’t that what he said before you shot him to death?

ANSWER: I can’t recognize that as saying that.

QUESTION: Do you knew what type of car he was driving?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Do you know what color it was?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Was the man wearing glasses?

ANSWER: I couldn’t see.

QUESTION: At the time you shot this man, was his ear near the front gate of the Tate residence?

ANSWER: It pulled up and stopped.

QUESTION: Where did it stop? You can look at this diagram here. Here is the front gate of the residence. Now, you, Katie, Sadie and Linda climbed over the front gate, is that correct, and as soon as you got over you saw the headlights of the oar approaching; is that correct?

ANSWER: No, I saw the headlights more on down, I believe.

QUESTION: You saw the headlights approaching the front gate; is that correct?

ANSWER: As we were walking down the driveway, I remember I saw the headlights coming.

QUESTION: Was the car near the front gate at the time you shot the man?

ANSWER: I don’t know. I know the car pulled up and stopped and I took the gun and that was it. I don’t know where I was on that,

QUESTION: You don’t know whether it was near the gate or not?

ANSWER: I don’t know how far we were. I have no idea.

QUESTION: Was the front of the car pointed directly toward the gate?

ANSWER: The car was driving up.

QUESTION: The car was driving toward the gate; right?

ANSWER: And stopped, yes.

QUESTION: It was going toward the gate?

ANSWER: Yes. It was coming toward us.

QUESTION: Tex, I show you people’s 6 for identification. It has been identified as the car in which Steven Parent was seated at the time that you shot him. You will notice, Tex, that the car is pretty close to the garage on the Tate premises. Do you know how the car got from where you shot Mr. Parent to where it is right now on this photograph?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: You pushed it, didn’t you?

ANSWER: No, uh-uh, didn’t push it,

QUESTION: You don’t know how it got there?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: After you shot Mr. Parent, did you turn off the ignition on the car?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t do anything,

QUESTION: All you did was shoot the man?

ANSWER: Shoot, right.

QUESTION: Any particular part of his body that you can recall?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Didn’t you tell Dr. Bohr, Dr. Vernon Bohr, that you shot the top part of his body four or five times?

ANSWER: Well, I just stuck the gun in there and probably was the top part of the body.

QUESTION: Now, you say you entered through the front door of the Tate residence?

ANSWER: The best I can recall, I must have walked in the front door.

QUESTION: Do you recall Linda testifying that you cut a screen on one of the windows —

ANSWER: Yes.

MR. BUBRICK: Object to whatever Linda testified —

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Directing your attention to People’s 26 for identification, a photograph of a window in the front of the Tate residence, Tex, and there is a screen off the window and it is slit horizontally, did you cut that screen?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: You didn’t cut the screen, open the window and enter through the window?

ANSWER: No

QUESTION: You entered through the front door; is that right?

ANSWER: The best I can recall, that’s the way I entered.

QUESTION: Did you knock on the door, Tex, ring the doorbell or anything like that?

ANSWER: I just walked in, I believe.

QUESTION: Was the door open at the time?

ANSWER: I believe it was closed; that’s not real cloar to me, you know, about the position of the door or anything.

QUESTION: When you entered the residence there was a man on the couch; is that right?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Was he sleeping?

ANSWER: Yes, I guess he was asleep, yeah.

QUESTION: Did you wake him up and tell him, “I’m the devil here to do the devil’s work”?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t say anything like that.

QUESTION: What’s the next thing that happened after you entered the residence?

ANSWER: I remember Sadie popped on the scene and she started bringing people out of the back door thing, and that’s what happened.

QUESTION: All right. Was one of the men rather short?

ANSWER: I don’t recall the size that much.

QUESTION: Was he shorter than the man who was on the couch?

ANSWER: I never did see the height of the people that much.

QUESTION: Was that because they were on their knees, Tex, when you were stabbing them?

ANSWER: I know one person was falling down or something while Sadie was stabbing him.

QUESTION: I believe you testified yesterday that the people you murdered were like blobs to you. What do you mean by that?

ANSWER: Well, it was kind of in — kind of in between, like I said, a dark and a light, you know; I just didn’t — it was hard to see the. It was hard to tell what they were, really. It was hard to tell what they were in a lot of ways.

QUESTION: You know they were human beings, didn’t you?

ANSWER: The thought of anything like that just didn’t occur, you know. The only thought in my head was just what Manson said.

QUESTION: Are you saying, then, that these people whom you killed were just objects to you?

ANSWER: Yes, I guess so.

QUESTION: Didn’t you testify yesterday that the woman on the front lawn — No. 1, it was a woman, it wasn’t an object, but it was a woman — and didn’t you testify that she was covered with blood, yesterday?

ANSWER: She was covered with blood, yes.

QUESTION: And it was a woman?

ANSWER: The best I could tell, because she had on a gown, had on a piece of cloth like; it must have been a woman,

QUESTION: Well, now, a woman with blood on her, that’s not a blob, is it, Tex?

ANSWER: Well, that’s what it appeared to me to be, you know; that’s what it looked kind of like.

QUESTION: Looked kind of like a woman with blood on her?

ANSWER: Well, it hard to say what she did look like, you know, really.

QUESTION: You also testified yesterday that there was a man inside — again, not a blob or an object, but a man, and he was wearing blue jeans?

ANSWER: Right; that’s right,

QUESTION: Is this what you mean when you say “blobs,” men with blue jeans and women with blood on them? Is that what you mean when you say “blobs”?

ANSWER: I don’t really mean anything, you know, really mean that much. I don’t know, I just know they were kind of in between, like I said.

QUESTION: Going back to Dr. Frank, again, the gentleman seated here on my right, did you tell Dr. Frank this, quote, “The girls were bringing everyone into the room. A man came running toward me. My gun was empty, so I stabbed him again and again”? Did you tell Dr. Frank that?

ANSWER: I know I shot the guy until the gun was empty, and than I stabbed the nano yes.

QUESTION: Do you recall the testimony, Tex, that two live rounds were found in this revolver when it was found over the side of the hill?

ANSWER: Yes, I recall it.

QUESTION: Two live rounds?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: The gun wasn’t empty, then, was it?

ANSWER: It was empty to me at the time. I mean, I shot it all I could.

QUESTION: Was this gun loaded when you left Spahn Ranch on the night of the Tate murders?

ANSWER: I never did look at the gun; I never did look at it.

QUESTION: Weren’t you concerned about whether it was empty or not? Charlie told you to go out and kill everyone; you weren’t going to go out with an unloaded gun, were you?

ANSWER: I didn’t know anything about guns.

QUESTION: You didn’t know anything about guns?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Didn’t you fire, test fire, practice fire this revolver out at Spahn Ranch on several occasions?

ANSWER: No.

MR. BUBRICK: If your Honor please, I think that is kind of a question that in without form, whether it was test fired, shot, or whatever it was; it is compound.

THE COURT: The question is, did you fire that gun at the Spahn Ranch, Mr. Watson.

THE WITNESS: No, I never had fired the gun.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: How many times would you say you stabbed Mr. Frykowski? This is the man that was on the couch; how many times do you think you stabbed him?

ANSWER: I really have no idea how many times, you know.

QUESTION: More than once?

ANSWER: It could have been one to a whole bunch of them, you know; I’m just not for sure how many times I stabbed him.

QUESTION: Did you shoot him, too?

ANSWER: Not that I recall, no.

QUESTION: I show you People’s 172, a photograph of Wojiciech Frykowski’s head. There are 13 one-quarter inch lacerations on the top of his head. Do you know how he got those, Tex?

ANSWER: I know I was hitting with the gun, and it might have been that.

QUESTION: You have have had something to do with it; right?

ANSWER: Like I said, I know I had — was hitting, you know.

QUESTION: You were hitting him on the top of the head?

ANSWER: I can’t recall where I was hitting him, but I was hitting him.

QUESTION: Were you hitting him with the butt of the revolver?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: So you grabbed the revolver by the barrel, then, and you hit him over the head with the butt?

ANSWER: I was using the gun like that, yes.

QUESTION: Do you know how many times you stabbed Sebring or Folger or Sharon Tate?

ANSWER: No, I don’t.

QUESTION: Did the people scream when you were stabbing them?

ANSWER: I remember everything being real wild and it was just a lot of static, you know.

QUESTION: Were they screaming at the top of their lungs?

ANSWER: A lot of loud noises, yes.

QUESTION: What kind of noises?

ANSWER: Just — I guess you could say screams and just a lot of loud noises.

QUESTION: Were they screaming for their lives?

ANSWER: I don’t know; I was just — really had no thought of anything like that.

QUESTION: One thing you do know, Tex, you weren’t screaming for your life, were you?

MR. KEITH: Object to the question; it is argumentative.

THE COURT: Sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Was this screaming just for a very brief moment or did it go on a long period of time?

ANSWER: There really wasn’t any time, just —

QUESTION: What do you mean, there wasn’t any time?

ANSWER: It’s hard for me to distinguish time during that period of time, you know.

QUESTION: During what period of time?

ANSWER: Well, during the time you were talking about, I guess.

QUESTION: Are you talking about, let’s say, August of 1969?

ANSWER: I’m just talking about on account of the trip I was on, you know.

QUESTION: Did you have any conception of time during December of 1969?

ANSWER: I know we didn’t use time, you know.

QUESTION: Did time mean anything to you?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Didn’t you testify this morning that a typical belladonna trip took about 10 days?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: How did you come up with the 10-day figure?

ANSWER: That’s just the time it took, I guess you’d say.

QUESTION: So you are aware of time, right, and you were aware of time?

ANSWER: Well, at times I was; but times it would pass like sometimes you might think you are out three days and you might not be out but a day, you know.

QUESTION: How long were you inside the Tate residence, talking about time again?

ANSWER: Like I say, I just can’t tell on that.

QUESTION: Did these people run away from you, Tex?

ANSWER: Just when I — I know when the guy Sadie was stabbing on, going out the door, you know, and I was hitting, hitting him with the gun, that that’s the only move away.

QUESTION: Did the other people just lie down and play dead and let you do that you wanted to?

ANSWER: That’s the way they were when I got to them.

QUESTION: By the time you got to them?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: They were just lying down?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you know how they got that way?

ANSWER: I know the girls was at them before I was because, like Katie ran over and grabbed me by the arm one time, or shoulder, and said, “Come over here,” so that where I went.

QUESTION: So they were already lying down when you came upon the scene?

ANSWER: Yes, right.

QUESTION: Didn’t you testify yesterday that Sadie brought a man into the living room and then she told you to watch out, he was coming towards you and you shot him; didn’t you say that yesterday?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s when I shot him; but I thought you were talking about stabbing. I shot the man coming toward me, yes.

QUESTION: In other words, when it came around to the time when you stabbed them they were already on the ground?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s correct.

QUESTION: And they got on the ground because you shot them; is that right?

ANSWER: Yes, that time, yes.

QUESTION: Didn’t you just say about a half a minute ago that you didn’t know how they got on the ground?

ANSWER: Well, one of them, I did, I guess; one of them I put on the ground when I shot, yes.

QUESTION: I guess so.

Did these people fight or struggle with you at all, Tex?

ANSWER: No, they didn’t — maybe the one going out the door, when I was hitting, but there wasn’t any struggle, you know.

QUESTION: Did they beg you not to kill them; did they say, “Please don’t kill me. Please let me live?” Did they say that to you, Tex?

ANSWER: I couldn’t hear that, no, I could just hear a bunch of screams and hollers.

QUESTION: Didn’t you tell Diane Lake in Olancha that Sharon Tate pleaded for her life; didn’t you tell her that?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Did you hear anything that they said?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: What did it feel like when you stabbed these people, Tex; what type of sensation was it?

ANSWER: I had no feeling.

QUESTION: Did you see blood coming out of their bodies when you stabbed them?

ANSWER: I saw blood, but I — I don’t know, I guess it was coming out, yeah.

QUESTION: They were covered with blood, weren’t they?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: There was blood all over the floor; right?

ANSWER: I didn’t see the blood on the floor,

QUESTION: Did you enjoy stabbing these peoples, Tex?

ANSWER: I had no thought of nothing like —

QUESTION: Pardon?

ANSWER: I had no thought of anything like that.

QUESTION: Didn’t you tell Diane Lake in Olancha, California, that it was fun to kill these people?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: You deny that, too?

ANSWER: Yes, I do.

QUESTION: Did these people die right away, Tex, when you stabbed them; or were they alive for quite a period of time?

MR. BUBRICK: If he knows, your Honor.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Well, he was there; that’s why I’m asking him.

MR. BUBRICK: This, think, is a kind of a legal-medical concept, your Honor.

THE COURT: He can tell the appearance.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Did they appear to die as soon as you stabbed them the first time, or were they lying there for a period of time and you continued to stab them?

ANSWER: I know I stabbed them, but I don’t know how long.

QUESTION: You stabbed them until they were dead; right?

ANSWER: I stabbed them; I don’t know when they died. I don’t know. I just don’t; I wasn’t thinking about that.

QUESTION: You are aware that there were no postmortem wounds on the victims, no wounds inflicted after death?

ANSWER: I don’t know about that.

QUESTION: Is that because you finally stopped when they stopped breathing?

ANSWER: I remember I stopped only because the girls would come over and get me and take me to somebody else.

QUESTION: Would you demonstrate to the jury with your hand how you stabbed these people?

ANSWER: I raised my hand up and I stabbed them like that.

QUESTION: Did you feel the knife penetrating their bones?

ANSWER: I didn’t have any feeling like that; it wasn’t like that.

QUESTION: Once your knife entered their bodies, Tex, did you lift up on the knife or move it at all, or did you pull it right out?

ANSWER: The best I can recall is just going up and down.

QUESTION: Let’s look at this revolver again, Tex. I notice that the right-hand grip on this revolver is off. Do you know how it fell off?

ANSWER: It must have fell off when I was hitting the rnn.

QUESTION: Hitting Mr. Frykowski?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: I also notice, Tex, that this trigger guard here is broken. Do you know how that happened?

ANSWER: I don’t know for sure how either one of them happened, really.

QUESTION: I also notice that the ejection spring housing here beneath the barrel is bent. Do you know how that happened?

ANSWER: Not for sure.

QUESTION: You also notice, Tex, that this barrel is kind of loose. Do you know how that happened?

ANSWER: I am not for sure about that.

QUESTION: You were hitting Mr. Frykowski with all the strength you could muster, right, Tex?

ANSWER: I was hitting him, yes.

QUESTION: What I mean is you were hitting him hard. You weren’t throwing kisses at him. You were hitting him hard; right?

THE COURT: The objection is sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You were hitting him hard; right.

MR. BUBRICK: Asked and answered, your Honor.

MR. BUGLIOSI: It hasn’t been answered yet.

THE COURT: You may answer that question.

THE WITNESS: I really don’t know what I was doing.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You don’t know whether you were hitting him?

ANSWER: I was hitting him, I guess, yes.

QUESTION: You don’t know how hard?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you take $70 from inside the residence?

ANSWER: No, I did not

QUESTION: You told Linda that you did, didn’t you?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Do you know Danny DeCarlo?

ANSWER: Yes, I know Danny DeCarlo.

QUESTION: You told Danny DeCarlo that, didn’t you?

MR. BUBRICK: Objection.

THE COURT: What is the objection?

MR. BUBRICK: It is hearsay. He can lay no foundation.

MR. BUGLIOSI: It is not hearsay, your Honor, an admission, an exception to the hearsay rule.

MR. BUBRICK: May we approach the bench, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

(The following proceedings were had at the bench.)

MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, it is my understanding that before you could ask a question to lay the basis for impeachment foundation, that you have to be prepared to show that if you get the answer you don’t want, you can complete the impeachment Now, there is no question but that they cannot. Danny DeCarlo is a fugitive from justice, not in the state of California. He is out of this country.

THE COURT: If this is the foundation you are laying and he does not complete it, do you intend to complete the impeachment by calling Danny DeCarlo?

MR. BUGLIOSI: We will get him, yes, if we can. I mean I have no guarantee. If we can’t, we can’t.

THE COURT: If you don’t I will instruct the jury to disregard it.

MR. BUBRICK: Thank you.

THE COURT: Just remind me, though. I will make a note of it too.

MR. BUGLIOSI: For the record we are having a difficult time locating him. The last we heard he was in Canada, but we do intend to call him in if we can find him.

THE COURT: If you do that, you have a right to complete it. If not, I will strike it.

(The following proceedings were had in open court.)

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You say you know Danny DeCarlo?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Didn’t you tell Danny DeCarlo that you took $70 from the people inside the residence?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: You, Sadie and Katie then after the killings, you went back to the car at the bottom of the hill; right?

ANSWER: Yes, right.

QUESTION: And I believe you testified yesterday you don’t know how you got out of the gate. Did you climb around it or did you go through the gate?

ANSWER: No, we walked right through the gate, I remember.

QUESTION: Did you press the inside button?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t.

QUESTION: When you got down to the car, Tex, do you recall Sadie telling you that she had lost her knife inside the residence?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Do you recall getting angry at her for losing her knife?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Do you recall getting angry at Linda for running down to the bottom of the hill?

ANSWER: No

QUESTION: Did you, Katie, and Sadie change your clothing as the car was in motion driving away from the residence?

ANSWER: Yes, I did. I changed my clothes. I don’t know about the other people.

QUESTION: Linda steered for you while you were changing your clothing?

ANSWER: No, Linda was driving.

QUESTION: Now, you eventually ended up in front of a house; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: And there was a hose extending out into the street?

ANSWER: There was a hose there but I’m not sure where it was extending.

QUESTION: What did you do in front of that house with that hose?

ANSWER: I recall getting a drink and it is kind of fuzzy whether I washed anything or not. It is kind of fuzzy.

Sometimes I think I might have and sometimes I might not have. I don’t know.

THE COURT: Would you read that back to me, please.

(The record was read by the reporter.)

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You testified yesterday that you were just drinking water in front of the house.

ANSWER: That is what I believe, you know.

QUESTION: You believe you were drinking water?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: You do not believe that you were washing blood off of your body; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is what is fuzzy right there.

QUESTION: Do you recall Dr. Bailey, one of the psychiatrists who examined you, asking you this question:

QUESTION: Do you remember your driving to a house where you and Sadie and Katie washed the blood off?” And your answering: “Yes.” Do you recall answering “yes” to that question by Dr. Bailey?

MR. BUBRICK: What page is that, Mr. Bugliosi?

MR. BUGLIOSI: On page 17 of Dr. Bailey’s report.

QUESTION: Do you recall telling Dr. Bailey that?

ANSWER: I believe I recall hearing Sadie say that — is he listening?

THE COURT: That is all right. You just answer the question.

THE WITNESS: I recall Sadie saying that we had to stop and wash the blood off. That is what I recall hearing Sadie say in the car.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Do you recall telling Dr. Frank over here and also Dr. Fort that you hosed the blood off your body in front of that house?

ANSWER: That is what is fuzzy. Sometimes I think I did and sometimes I don’t. I really can’t recall that.

QUESTION: Do you recall telling them that, though?

ANSWER: I very well could have, yes.

QUESTION: Why did you want to wash the blood of your body?

ANSWER: I know Charlie had told use to clean up and throw the clothes away and Sadie also mentioned it too, and that is what we were doing, you know, I guess, if I did wash my hand or if I did wash myself anywhere.

QUESTION: Do you recall hearing the testimony of the gray-haired man about your height early in the trial?

MR. BUBRICK: I think it would be immaterial whether he heard it or not, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I want to ask him if he recognises this man, your Honor.

THE COURT: Ask him if he saw the man. Did you see the gray-haired man that took the stand here? I believe his name was Weber.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Rudolf Weber, that is right.

THE COURT: The man who chased you from that house.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I know, but I don’t know if that was the man for sure, but I do recall the man at the house, yes.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Did you run from where the hose was down to the car at the bottom of the street?

ANSWER: As I recall correctly the car wasn’t that far away from the house. It was just a few steps from the house, see, down just a little ways, not too far, though, maybe right past his driveway is where I believe it was.

QUESTION: Did you run to the car or did you walk?

ANSWER: I believe I was walking, you know, kind of a walk. I know he was behind us or something and we were walking or maybe a fast walk or I don’t really know how. I can’t recall that much.

QUESTION: Do you recall the man asking the group of you if that was your car at the bottom of the street and your answering “No, we are walking.” Do you recall that?

ANSWER: I can’t recall that, no.

QUESTION: Did you tell him that?

ANSWER: I could have but I don’t recall it. I can recall saying I was getting a drink, that is all.

QUESTION: Why did you lie to him and tell him that you were getting a drink?

MR. KEITH: Object to the question on the ground it assumes facts not in evidence.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BUGLIOSI: He said he may very well have been washing blood off his body, If that is the case, it would be a lie.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Did Linda throw the knives out of the car?

ANSWER: Yes, I believe so, yes, and clothes and stuff.

QUESTION: And you told her to wipe the fingerprints off the knives before she threw them out of the car; is that right?

ANSWER: No. That is not right.

QUESTION: Do you know who threw that revolver out of the car?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: Did you throw anything out of the car?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Do you recall going to a gasoline station and telling the girls to wipe the rest of the blood off their bodies?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: Did you?

ANSWER: I went into the restroom, yes.

QUESTION: For what purpose?

ANSWER: I looked in the mirror and that is all I can remember doing.

QUESTION: You didn’t wash any blood off your body?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: And you didn’t tell the girls to do that?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: When you returned to Spahn Ranch Manson was waiting for you, wasn’t he?

ANSWER: Manson, I remember seeing him and he didn’t have on any clothes. He was running up and down the ranch.

QUESTION: Did you tell Charlie what had happened?

ANSWER: No. I had no words with Charlie that night.

QUESTION: He didn’t ask you?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: And you didn’t volunteer to tell him anything?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: You are telling the jury then that he sent you out to kill these people but when you came back you and he never said anything to each other; is that that you are telling the jury?

ANSWER: Yes, that is right.

QUESTION: Did you ever tell Charlie what happened?

ANSWER: No. If I recall, some people were talking to him but I never said anything.

QUESTION: Is it your testimony, Tex, that on the night of the Tate murders you were doing whatever the girls told you to do?

ANSWER: I was doing what Charles Manson had told me to do and Charles Manson was the girls and I was Charles Manson and we were all Charles Manson.

QUESTION: So they were doing the thinking and you were doing the acting; is that your testimony?

MR. BUBRICK: That is not what he said, your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection is sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: How is it, Tex, that during the hosing incident you took it upon yourself to talk to Mr. Weber to say that you were just getting a drink of water? How come you were the only one that did the talking?

ANSWER: He was confronting me. He walked right up in front of me, to my face.

QUESTION: What did you do on the day after the Tate murders? You came back, you went to sleep, you woke up; what did you do that day?

ANSWER: I didn’t do anything that day. I did — I remember waking up and that’s about all I did, you know.

QUESTION: Did you watch any television?

ANSWER: No, I did not

QUESTION: When is the first time that you found out who the victims were?

ANSWER: I never did really know who the victims were. I can’t recall at all when I found that out.

QUESTION: On August the 19th, you told Diane Lake, you mentioned Sharon Tate’s name to Diane; didn’t you?

ANSWER: Not that I can recall, no.

QUESTION: Now, on the night of the LaBianca murders, was Charlie driving the car most of the time?

ANSWER: The best I can recall, Charlie and Linda was driving the car.

QUESTION: Did they drive to Pasadena at all?

ANSWER: I’m not for sure where we were all the time; I was kind of lost on that, but —

QUESTION: Do you remember stopping in front of a church?

ANSWER: I remember stopping a couple of times. I believe we did stop in front of a church, yes; Charlie got out a couple of times, I remember.

QUESTION: Were you going to enter that church?

ANSWER: Was I going to?

QUESTION: Yes.

ANSWER: Not that I know of. I know Charlie got out and got back in the car, and that was it.

QUESTION: Would you have gone into that church if he asked you?

MR. BUBRICK: It calls for speculation, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Do you remember an incident on Sunset Boulevard where Manson was going to kill the driver of a white sports oar?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: Do you know what time you arrived at the residence next door to the LaBianca residence, Harold True’s former residence?

ANSWER: I didn’t never go to Harold True’s residence, I don’t believe.

QUESTION: The car was parked next door to the LaBianca residence; you were aware of that?

ANSWER: I’m aware of getting out of the car; it seems I just walked straight to a house.

QUESTION: Manson got out of the car first; is that right?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s correct.

QUESTION: And he walked up the driveway alone?

ANSWER: I didn’t see where he was walking. I didn’t see Charlie after he left the car.

QUESTION: He got out alone, though?

ANSWER: Yes, he got out alone.

QUESTION: How long was he gone?

ANSWER: I just don’t know.

QUESTION: And when he came back, what did he say to you?

ANSWER: He told the girls to get out of the car and me to get out of the care and walked around the side of the car — the back of the car; and he said something to the effect to do what you did last night or kill them as gruesome, or make sure they are dead as gruesome as you can, or something to that. It’s not real clear what he did say right now.

QUESTION: Earlier in the evening you told Charlie you needed better weapons than you had the previous night; right?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: You, Leslie and Katie then entered the residence; is that right?

ANSWER: You said Katie and Leslie and I?

QUESTION: Yes.

ANSWER: Yes, that’s who went.

QUESTION: Did you enter through the front door?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Was the door already open?

ANSWER: I don’t — I don’t really know; I know I went in after them, kind of, you know, behind them. That’s all I remember, kind of.

QUESTION: Was there a man and a woman inside the residence?

ANSWER: It was hard for me to recognize with the things over their head, but it must have been a man and a woman, yes.

QUESTION: What were they doing when you entered the residence?

ANSWER: The man was just laying down on the couch.

QUESTION: Did he say anything?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Where was the woman?

ANSWER: The first time I saw the woman was when I walked into the bedroom, Leslie was stabbing her; that’s where the woman was.

QUESTION: Was the woman saying anything?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did these two people — let’s call them Mr. and Mrs. La Bianca — did they scream at all?

ANSWER: No, I heard no sounds that night.

QUESTION: They didn’t make any sound at all?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: I show you People’s 91, Tex, and the word “War,” w-a-r, is carved in Mr. LaBianca’s stomach. Did you carve those letters into his stomach?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Do you have any idea who did?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: But you did stab this gentleman?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: How many times?

ANSWER: I don’t know how many times.

QUESTION: I show you People’s 217; you notice there is a knife sticking into Mr. LaBianca’s throat. Did you do that, Tex?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: Do you know who did?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Showing you 91 again People’s 91, there is a fork protruding from Mr. LaBianca’s stomach. Did you do that?

ANSWER: No, I did not

QUESTION: Do you know who did?

ANSWER: No, I do not.

QUESTION: I show you People’s 210, Tex; have you ever seen that knife before?

ANSWER: No, I haven’t.

QUESTION: Did you stab Mr. LaBianca with that knife?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you go into the kitchen and get any kitchen utensils from the LaBianca residence?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: I show you People’s 207; have you ever seen that fork before?

ANSWER: Not before here in the courtroom, no.

THE COURT: Might this be a good time, Mr. Bugliosi?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will have our afternoon recess at this time; and, once again, please heed the usual admonition.

(Recess)

THE COURT: People versus Watson. Let the records show all jurors, counsel and the defendant are present.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Tex, in Olancha, after these killings, did you make Diane Lake promise not to tell anyone what you had told her?

ANSWER: No, I did not.

QUESTION: You did buy some newspapers up in Olancha?

ANSWER: No. There was a newspaper bought, I believe.

QUESTION: When I say Olancha, I am talking about the time that you were up there after these killings around August the 18th, 19th or 20th, around that period of time did you buy any newspapers up there?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you read any of the newspapers?

ANSWER: I’m not for sure about that. I might have had one in my hand but I am not — I can’t say for sure.

QUESTION: Were you concerned about what was being written in the newspapers about these killings?

ANSWER: No. I had no real thought.

QUESTION: You weren’t concerned about it?

ANSWER: No, I hadn’t thought.

QUESTION: Was it your state of mind, however, that the police certainly would be looking for the killers?

MR. BUBRICK: Calls for a conclusion as to his state of mind.

MR. BUGLIOSI: His state of mind is relevant.

THE COURT: I will let him answer that one.

THE WITNESS: What was the question again, please?

THE COURT: Do you remember the question, Mr, Bugliosi?

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Was it your state of mind after those killings that the police, Los Angeles Police Department, certainly would be looking for these killers, whoever committed the killings?

ANSWER: No, it wasn’t real to me.

QUESTION: So you didn’t think, then, that the police would want to know who committed those killings?

ANSWER: Just was no thought about that.

QUESTION: At the time you killed these people, Tex, was it your belief that it wasn’t wrong to kill them?

ANSWER: Everything was perfect.

QUESTION: I will ask you again, was it your belief that it wasn’t wrong to kill them?

ANSWER: There just was no thought of right or wrong; there was no thought about it.

QUESTION: Well, did you feel you were doing anything wrong when you killed them?

ANSWER: I had no feelings.

QUESTION: So you felt it was perfect?

ANSWER: Everything was perfect.

QUESTION: Now, between the time of those murders in August of 1969 and the time that you were arrested in December of 1969, a period of about four months, you certainly met and spoke to many people; is that correct?

ANSWER: Not a lot of people. I kind of, you know, stayed to myself all the time.

QUESTION: Well, didn’t you talk to people in your hometown?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Didn’t you go out on a date with Jeanne Mallett from your hometown?

ANSWER: She came by and got me a couple of times, yes.

QUESTION: You talked to her, didn’t you?

ANSWER: Yes, I talked to her.

QUESTION: So you talked to people back in Texas?

ANSWER: Yes, a few people.

QUESTION: You went to Hawaii; you spoke to people in Hawaii, didn’t you?

ANSWER: I didn’t know anybody there.

QUESTION: Did you talk at all to anybody in Hawaii?

ANSWER: Sure; I had to communicate.

QUESTION: All right. Did you talk to anyone in Mexico?

ANSWER: Yes, I’d have to talk to somebody.

QUESTION: And you were hitchhiking? right?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

QUESTION: And the person who would pick you up, I imagine you would talk to that person? right?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And certainly, Tex, you considered these killings a serious event in your life — is that a proper word, serious, significant?

ANSWER: At that time it really wasn’t real, nothing was real, you know.

QUESTION: Well, you know you had killed these people?

ANSWER: I’m not — it just wasn’t real to me at that time.

QUESTION: It wasn’t real to you that you had killed the people?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: When did you discover that you had a scratch on the palm of your hand?

ANSWER: I believe it was in Olancha or a short time afterwards.

QUESTION: So you were aware of the scratch on your hand but not the fact that seven people were killed; is that what you are saying?

MR. KEITH: Objection —

MR. BUBRICK: Objection; argumentative.

THE COURT: Objection sustained, argumentative.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Tex, since you thought that it was perfect to do what you did at the Tate and LaBianca residences, since you thought that it was perfect and since you met and spoke to many people between the time of these murders and the time you were arrested in December of 1969, did you tell anyone that you had done this?

ANSWER: I really wasn’t sure what I had done. No, I did not tell anyone.

QUESTION: Why didn’t you Tex?

ANSWER: I don’t know why.

QUESTION: Since you thought of that what you did was perfect, Tex, between the time of the murders and the time of your arrest, why didn’t you contact the police department and tell them that you had participated in these murders?

ANSWER: I don’t know why.

QUESTION: I believe you testified that you don’t feel the same way about killing at the present time as you did at the time of the killings. Did you testify to that on direct examination of Mr. Bubrick?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s correct.

QUESTION: You testified you had no feelings then but you do now; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes. My feelings are gaining each day.

QUESTION: When did you acquire this new feeling?

ANSWER: I am not for sure. I gained feelings, lost feelings, gained feelings, lost feelings, and gaining and it would be hard to say, you know.

QUESTION: But at the present time you do have a feeling about killing other people?

ANSWER: Yes, I do.

QUESTION: But at the time of these killings, you did not; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Again talking about Dr. Frank here, when he interviewed you, did you tell him this: “I saw a guy laying on the couch. He started coming at me and I shot him and then stabbed him and stabbed him and stabbed him. People were running everywhere. I had no feelings then or now. It doesn’t affect me, although I can see her others can find it wrong to kill.” Do you recall telling Dr. Frank that?

ANSWER: Yes, I believe I did at that time.

QUESTION: Now, when you said to Dr. Frank, “I had no feelings then or now,” what did you mean by that?

ANSWER: Well, at the time he interviewed me, I must have not had any feelings then.

QUESTION: He interviewed you in March and April of 1971, quite a long time after the killings. At that time, you still didn’t think it was wrong to kill; is that right, Tex?

ANSWER: After the treatment I got when I got to California, I kind of flipped out and I didn’t know what to believe at that time

QUESTION: Oh, your belief was that —

ANSWER: True.

QUESTION: — that you had no feelings?

ANSWER: True.

QUESTION: So you certainly had a negative type of a belief; right?

ANSWER: At that time, yes.

QUESTION: At the time of the trial, you do have a different feeling; is that right?

ANSWER: Yes, I do.

QUESTION: Does the fact that you are on trial for murder have any connection with your change of mind, Tex?

ANSWER: No, it doesn’t.

QUESTION: When you told Dr. Frank, “I had no feelings then or now. It doesn’t affect me. Although I can see how others can feel it is wrong to kill –” when you told him that, was it your state of mind that although you didn’t think it was wrong to kill these people, you knew that other people thought it was wrong. Was that your state of mind?

ANSWER: I don’t really know my state of rind then. I guess that is the way it was to me at that time.

QUESTION: At what time? At the time you talked to Dr. Frank?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And also at the time of the killings?

ANSWER: No. At the time of the killings, I had no feelings at all at that time.

QUESTION: When you were at the Barker Ranch with the family in late August, September and October of 1969, did you still love Charles Manson during that period of time?

ANSWER: He was still the same to me.

QUESTION: You still thought he was Jesus Christ?

ANSWER: He lost me somewhere in there at the end of when I left, but he still had the effect on me, you know, the same effect a lot of ways,

QUESTION: Did you love him at that time?

ANSWER: He was me at that time. It was just one person at the ranch all the time.

QUESTION: Are you telling this jury then that when Manson told you to go out and kill these people, that you were talking to yourself?

ANSWER: No. I was Charles Manson. That is who I was.

QUESTION: After these murders, Tex, were you hiding from the police at all?

ANSWER: No, I was not.

QUESTION: When you went to Mexico and Hawaii, were you hiding?

ANSWER: No, I was going back to Charles Manson, trying to.

QUESTION: Did you think he was in Hawaii?

ANSWER: No, I ended up in the desert. I was kind of — I couldn’t pull, you know, to him and then something would always tell me not to go back and something would tell me to go back; and I ended up back there, but he wasn’t there.

QUESTION: But you knew he wasn’t in Hawaii?

ANSWER: That is true.

QUESTION: Why did you go to Hawaii?

ANSWER: I guess I was running from him kind of, you know; I don’t really know why.

QUESTION: Running from him? You just said you went to him, Tex.

ANSWER: Well, I was going to him, and sometimes my mind — it was in a state of confusion, like, I was all messed up.

QUESTION: During this period of time between the time of the murder and the time you were arrested, did you want to be arrested?

ANSWER: I had no thought about being arrested, really.

QUESTION: Were you hoping the police wouldn’t find you, Tex?

ANSWER: I had no thought of it, no; I just really had no thought of what was happening.

QUESTION: But you had enough thought not to tell anybody; is that right?

ANSWER: I never did really know that it was real. Just wasn’t real to me in any way,

QUESTION: How do you feel about Charlie Manson at the present time?

ANSWER: At the present time I feel that he was kind of a false god or something, a false prophet, as you would say, or something.

QUESTION: Do you feel he was an evil man?

ANSWER: Yes, I do.

QUESTION: And when did you come to that conclusion?

ANSWER: Well, since I have been slowly getting back to my parents and writing them every day, and I’d say for about the past — I don’t know how many months, I have been slowly getting back to what I think is right, you know.

QUESTION: The closer you came to the trial, the farther you got away from Charles Manson; is that right, Tex?

ANSWER: I was treated so much like Charles Manson when — everybody was calling me Charles Manson when I got to California, seemed like I became Charles Manson again.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I just have one more question. May we approach the bench on this?

(The following proceedings were had at the bench out of the hearing of the jury)

MR. BUGLIOSI: On direct examination I believe he testified that he has different feelings now, he thinks that it is wrong to kill. I think that we should be able to go into the fact that in October of 1970 he told Dr. Owre, a doctor at Atascadero, “I could kill you very easily.” I think if they can go into something like that, I think we can; moreover, it is not a crime, we are not putting on evidence of another crime.

THE COURT: You want to ask him —

MR. BUGLIOSI: If he told Dr. Owre —

THE COURT: When was this?

MR. BUGLIOSI: In October of 1970, when he was sent up there from Los Angeles to Atascadero, for examining him up there.

MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, that is going to open up —

THE COURT: It is going to open up an awful lot, but —

MR. BUBRICK: It is going to open up a tremendous issue.

THE COURT: Are you going to call Dr. Owre?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes, but I wanted to see his reaction to that, if he —

MR. BUBRICK: If you ask him that question —

MR. BUGLIOSI: — denies it, and then Owre confirms it again, it shows he’s not telling the truth on the stand.

MR. BUBRICK: I tell you, Vince, if you ask him that question no matter what he says, we are going to open up every single thing that happened to him at Atascadero.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Everything?

MR. BUBRICK: Everything.

MR. BUGLIOSI: We intended to call the Atascadero —

MR. BUBRICK: I am going to bring in people — he has told me about beatings he got at Atascadero; if that is so, we will try the conduct of the state officials at Atascadero.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I don’t know that that would be admissible.

THE COURT: If it would relate to his state of mind, and you are going into his state of mind, they have the right —

MR. BUGLIOSI: Assuming they can make an offer of proof, there is some nexus between his treatment up there and his offering to kill —

MR. BUBRICK: Just a minute, just a minute.

THE COURT: That is not a correct statement.

MR. BUBRICK: That is not a threat to kill. You want an admission that he said certain words, but that is not a threat to kill, because the officer said — I heard the statement; he said it was an explosive response, that all. It was an explosive response, not a threat to kill.

MR. BUGLIOSI: And that were his words? “I can kill you very easily”?

MR. BUBRICK: Something like that.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Do you want to stipulate that he said it?

MR. BUBRICK: No, I won’t stipulate to it.

THE COURT: Are you objecting to his asking the question?

MR. BUBRICK: Yes, I am, your Honor.

MR. BUGLIOSI: We intend to call the Atascadero psychiatrist —

THE COURT: You are going to call him anyway?

MR. BUGLIOSI: I am interested in whether he will deny it; he is denying everything —

THE COURT: The funny part, he is not denying everything, Vince.

MR. BUGLIOSI: He is not denying the seven killings, but he is denying the other things Linda testified to.

THE COURT: I thought he admitted a lot that Linda testified to.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Really?

THE COURT: I thought so. There are divergences here and there, of course — the rope —

MR. BUGLIOSI: The rope, en route to the Tate residence, he denied telling the girls to do whatever he told them to do and denies telling Linda to wrap the revolver and the knives up —

THE COURT: yes.

MR. BUGLIOSI: He denies telling her to wipe off fingerprints —

THE COURT: There is no question about that, there is a conflict between them, there is no question.

MR. BUBRICK: It is conceivable that Linda may have been stretching it a little bit.

THE COURT: Well, if you think that is important, I will allow you to ask him that; but on redirect examination I am going to allow them to go into the why and the wherefore.

MR. BUGLIOSI: You are going into it anyway?

MR. BUBRICK: I am not; I do not —

MR. KAY: Judge, before we go back, I want to talk to Vince a minute.

MR. BUBRICK: You notice we have avoided Atascadero all the time.

MR. KAY: Our investigator just informed me I hadn’t called Dr. Bailey’s office to tell Dr. Bailey that I wanted him next Tuesday morning; and evidently Dr. Bailey is leaving tomorrow night for Hawaii; so that if it is all right, we would like to put him on out of order tomorrow morning.

THE COURT: I think we can accommodate you; but how about this present question?

MR. KAY: That has nothing to do with this.

THE COURT: Let’s settle one thing at a time.

MR. BUGLIOSI: May I as Mr. Bubrick, are you saying there is a connection between this statement and the treatment that he got up at Atascadero?

MR. BUBRICK: I am. He went up to Atascadero with my specific instructions not to discuss this crime with anybody, not to tell them a single solitary thing about it, and I will take the witness stand and —

MR. KAY: You can’t

MR. BUBRICK: Don’t tell me what I can do; the judge will tell me what I can do. I am prepared to do that if necessary; that’s why he didn’t say a word to anybody in Atascadero about this case. They kept prompting him, prompting him, prompting him. Owre and that staff just leading him on in an effort to get him to say something. I made two trips to Atascadero and I told them, “He is not going to tell you a thing, those are my orders.”

MR. BUGLIOSI: So, when they leaned on him, he said, “I could kill you very easily”? You can put that on.

MR. BUBRICK: They took it out of context.

MR. BUGLIOSI: You can put that on.

MR. BUBRICK: I will.

THE COURT: Your instructions were that they were not to interview him —

MR. BUBRICK: That is what I told Tex — I didn’t, of course, before he got to Atascadero — I told him, “When you go there, you are not to talk about this case with anybody; I don’t want you to talk to any of the doctors, to anybody up there about the facts of this case.”

MR. BUGLIOSI: Of course, they are not members of law enforcement; nor, are they agents, really, so I think under the law —

THE COURT: I will let you go into it, but then he can —

MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes, he can do that.

THE COURT: All right, go ahead.

(The following proceedings were had in open court within the hearing of the jury)

MR. BUGLIOSI: I have just a few more questions, your Honor.

QUESTION: Going back to the LaBianca murders, Tex, isn’t it true that after you had participated in the killing of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca, isn’t it true that you told Leslie Van Houton to wipe off all the fingerprints inside the residence?

MR. KEITH: Object to the question, your Honor. May we approach the bench?

THE COURT: That is permissible.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: It Isn’t that true, Tex?

ANSWER: No, it is not.

QUESTION: What did you do with the knives that were used to kill Leno and Rosemary LaBianca?

ANSWER: I guess they went the same place the clothes went, but I never saw the knife after we left the houses

QUESTION: You left your knife inside the house?

ANSWER: No,

QUESTION: What did you do with your knife?

ANSWER: The girls were carrying it, all the stuff down the road, you know, and when I went to sleep under the tree, that is where I never saw anything again, you know.

QUESTION: Each of you threw your knives and clothing inside of a garbage can in an alley near the LaBianca residence; isn’t that true, Tex?

ANSWER: No. I didn’t throw mine away, no

QUESTION: One more question, Tex; You were up at Atascadero in October 1970; is that correct?

ANSWER: I guess that is when I was there.

QUESTION: And you were interviewed by a doctor by the name of Alfred Owre, O-w-r-e?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Do you recall telling Dr. Owre in October 1970 that you could kill him very easily?

ANSWER: I told him — that is what he said I said, but I did say — that was relating to him in what kind of mind I was at the time of the killings, that I could have killed anyone very easily, if it was him or if it was anyone in that room at the time, I could have killed them. That is what I said.

QUESTION: You were not talking about the present when talking to Dr. Owre, You did not tell him, “I could kill you right now very easily”?

ANSWER: I told him that I could kill him right now very easily. I could have said that, yes.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK:

QUESTION: Charles, what was happening to you out at Atascadero at that time?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Too broad a question, your Honor. It is ambiguous and I object upon that ground.

THE COURT: Yes, Narrow it down.

QUESTION BY MR. BUBRICK: Do you remember the date on which this conversation took place with Dr, Owre?

ANSWER: No, I don’t remember the exact date, no.

QUESTION: Do you remember where it took place?

ANSWER: Yes. It took place in one of the back rooms of the hospital.

QUESTION: Was there anybody else there with Dr. Owre?

ANSWER: Yes. There as some technicians there.

QUESTION: Do you remember who they were, their names, or anything of that nature?

ANSWER: They were my sponsors at the hospital and one of them’s name was Ray Barnett, I believe and Mr. Weams was another one, I believe, and I can’t recall who else.

QUESTION: Do you remember what Dr. Owre was talking to you about on this particular occasion?

ANSWER: He was talking to me about the Tata and LaBianca murders.

QUESTION: Was he asking you whether you had anything to do with them or not?

ANSWER: He constantly asked me about the case all the time.

QUESTION: Did you have any instructions when you went to Atascadero?

ANSWER: Yes. l was told by you not to talk to anyone about the case.

QUESTION: Did you tell that to the doctors?

ANSWER: I can’t recall if I told that to the doctors or not.

QUESTION: Did you tell them you didn’t want to discuss the facts of the case with them?

ANSWER: I just wouldn’t discuss that much at all, because you had told me not to talk to anyone, and I didn’t talk to anyone that much.

QUESTION: On the day that this statement was made, what had you been talking about, if you remember?

ANSWER: I don’t know. They kept calling me Charles Manson instead of Charles Watson.

QUESTION: Dr. Owre did?

ANSWER: Yes. They would always act like they had made a mistake. They would say Mr. Manson, or Charles Manson and —

MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I move to strike that on the ground that is a conclusion of the witness and ask the Court to admonish the jury to disregard it.

THE COURT: What are you asking me to strike?

MR. BUGLIOSI: His statement that they would act like they had made a mistake as a conclusion on his part, what was on their minds.

THE COURT: The motion will be denied.

QUESTION BY MR. BUBRICK: When they said, “Charles Manson,” would they say anything else following that?

ANSWER: I can’t recall. I know everywhere I went during that time I was treated like that and people were calling and treating me like that

QUESTION: When Dr. Owre called you Charles Manson, would he call you by any other name?

ANSWER: Sometimes he would say, “Tex” and he vas always getting mad at me.

QUESTION: Getting mad at you, why, if you know?

ANSWER: Because I wouldn’t tell him about the case.

QUESTION: Now, when you made these statements, do you remember what sort at things you were wearing? Were you wearing any articles on you at all?

ANSWER: Wearing the wrist restraints that I was in for a long time.

QUESTION: You wore wrist restraints all the time you were there, didn’t you?

ANSWER: No, not all the time. About, I would say, four weeks or so.

QUESTION: Where were you when you made the statement? Sitting at a table or something like that?

ANSWER: No. I was sitting in a chair.

QUESTION: And where was Dr. Owre?

ANSWER: He was sitting about from here to where he is from me.

THE COURT: Meaning Mr. Kay?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: About 10 feet or so?

MR. BUGLIOSI: So stipulate.

THE WITNESS: Or maybe a little less than that, about like that.

QUESTION BY MR. BUBRICK: How did you happen — do you remember the exact statement you made?

ANSWER: No, but I remember what — kind of what was going on, was trying to explain to him how I was, you know, at the time of the killings and then he —

QUESTION: What did you tell him about how you were?

ANSWER: I told him that about what I said today, you know, about being Charles Manson and how he told me to — how he had power over me to make it perfect to kill, to kill that day.

QUESTION: What did Dr. Owre say?

ANSWER: Then he said — then he — they made a big thing out of it, the technicians and he made a big thing out of it. He just jumped up and hollered, “You just threatened to kill me,” you know. And then he said, “You heard him,” to one of the technicians, and then the technician said, “Yes, I heard him.” He made a big thing out of something that I didn’t really even say.

QUESTION: De you remember what you said?

ANSWER: I don’t know. It ended up like they said you know, it ended up.

QUESTION: “I could kill you easily”?

ANSWER: I don’t know if those were the exact words, but they made it seem like it was like that, I know they had me pretty drugged during that time

QUESTION: Had you been having any difficulty with any of the technicians there, Charles?

ANSWER: They beat me up three or four times.

QUESTION: And how about the kind of food that you were getting at Atascadero?

ANSWER: They wouldn’t give me the kinds of foods that was used to eating and X was nearly starving to death and then when I wouldn’t eat it, they took me back in the back and beat me up until I passed out and they had to use oxygen on me to wake me up.

QUESTION: Where did you get the food, where did you get whatever you did eat?

ANSWER: Out of garbage cans,

QUESTION: At Atascadero Hospital?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you tell that to Dr. Owre?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you tell that to the technicians?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: That you wouldn’t eat what they served on your tray; is that right?

ANSWER: I would eat what I could and then I would eat out of the garbage cans what I could.

QUESTION: Did anybody ever catch you eating out of the garbage cans?

ANSWER: I think once they did but they never did punish me for that.

QUESTION: Did you over tell anybody at Atascadero about your participation in the murders?

ANSWER: Nobody.

QUESTION: Do you remember my coming to Atascadero and talking with you?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember my instructions to you at Atascadero?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember my telling you not to continue to talk to anybody there?

ANSWER: That is right.

QUESTION: And you followed that order?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: When this statement was made, did you make any threats to Dr. Owre?

ANSWER: What statement was made?

QUESTION: When this statement, “I could kill you very easily” was made, when that purported statement was made, did you make any threats to Dr. Owre? Did you get out of your chair?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: You still were wearing wrist restraints?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Was there still this 10-foot separation between you?

ANSWER: Yes, plus a couple of big technicians that were beating on me previously and afterwards.

QUESTION: Charles, how were the clothes at Spahn Ranch distributed?

ANSWER: They were all just in a big pile in a room everywhere. The clothes were all at that time just in a pile that anybody could go in and get any clothes and wear just anything they could find to wear.

QUESTION: Did you have any clothes of your own at Spahn Ranch?

ANSWER: No, none at all.

QUESTION: Did anybody at Spahn Ranch own or hold apart their own separate clothing?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: So that there was just a sort of community pile. You took what was there; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: Now, you were asked how many times you were at the Cielo Drive address, do you remember that? Do you remember being at that house?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: You said you were there two or three times, something like that?

ANSWER: That’s right.

QUESTION: Do you remember what rooms you went into, the times you were there with Dean Moorehouse?

ANSWER: We were in the front room one time and I remember sitting at the breakfast table one time.

QUESTION: Well, the breakfast room table, is that the time you vent to get bail for Greg Jakobson?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: Did you over go to any room other than the breakfast room?

ANSWER: That’s all.

QUESTION: And I think you said you hitchhiked there?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: And when you left the residence, how did you leave?

ANSWER: The butler took me a way.

QUESTION: The butler did what?

ANSWER: Terry Melcher’s chauffeur, I guess I should say, took me down to Sunset Boulevard and I hitchhiked.

QUESTION: He drove you down the hill to Sunset Boulevard; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: On the other occasions when you had previously visited the Cielo Drive address with Dean Moorehouse, do you know whether or not you pressed the button tote gate leading to the house?

ANSWER: Dean was driving; I didn’t press any button.

QUESTION: Now, are you aware of the gate opening on those occasions and a car driving up the driveway?

ANSWER: That’s not really clear to me right now. I know, like a lot of things must have happened, but it is not too clear to me.

QUESTION: Well, on the occasions when you drove up there with Mr. Moorehouse, after you got to the house and knock on the door, if you remember?

ANSWER: Yes, we’d get out of the house and knock on the door.

QUESTION: Are there any occasions that you remember coming through the driveway, through this gate and finding somebody at the front of the house waiting for you?

ANSWER: I can’t recall.

QUESTION: Did you know whether or not there was a signaling device from the electric gate to the house?

ANSWER: No, I never — it never came to my mind,

MR. BUBRICK: l have nothing further, your Honor.

THE COURT: You may step down, Mr. Watson.

MR. BUGLIOSI: May we approach the bench?

THE COURT: Do you want the reporter?

MR. BUGLIOSI: No.

(Unreported discussion at the bench.)

(The following proceedings were had in open court in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will recess at this time until 9:30 tomorrow. Once more, do not form or express any opinion in this case; do not discuss it among yourselves, let no one else talk to you about this case and please keep your minds open. 9:30 tomorrow morning.

(At 3:48 p.m. an adjournment was taken until Friday, September 3, 1971 at 9:30 a.m.)

THE COURT: Good morning.

THE JURORS: Good morning.

THE COURT: Gentlemen. Let the record show all jurors are present; all counsel, defendant present. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we are getting a rather late start this morning, but we were not twiddling our thumbs. We were discussing matters of law in chambers, so we were busy. Mr. Bubrick, are you ready to proceed?

MR. BUBRICK: I am, your Honor. Mr. Watson, would you resume the stand, please.

THE CLERK: Retake the stand, please. You have been previously sworn.

CHARLES WATSON,
the defendant herein, called as a witness in his own behalf in surrebuttal, having been previously duly sworn, testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Would you restate your name for the record?

THE WITNESS: Charles Watson, W-a-t-s-o-n.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK

QUESTION: Mr. Watson, I think you told us at the time you originally testified that you were back home in Texas during the month of October 1969; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: Did you see any of your friends during that time?

ANSWER: No, not during that time.

QUESTION: Do you know Denise Mallett?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you see her when you were home in Texas?

ANSWER: Not until a little before I went to jail, about a week before I went to jail.

QUESTION: What month of the year would that have been?

ANSWER: In November.

QUESTION: That is when you saw Denise?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: You say about a week before you went to jail?

ANSWER: I’m not — somewhere in that period.

QUESTION: Can you tell us whether it was before or after, say, Thanksgiving of 1969, which occurs in November?

ANSWER: It was before, I believe.

QUESTION: And do you remember how you happened to see her for the first time?

ANSWER: She called up on the phone and I was at home.

QUESTION: Were you in Copeville?

ANSWER: Yes. And I talked to her on the phone. She said that she was at her grandmother’s house in Farmersville and wanted to know if I could come up of something to that effect.

QUESTION: Up until the time that you heard from Denise and she came over, had you seen any of your other friends in Farmersville or Copeville or the area that you lived in?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Had any of your old friends been over to visit you?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Had you seen any of thee

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Then Denise did however come to your home in Copeville, did she?

ANSWER: Yes, the following day.

QUESTION: Did she drive?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: She came her own car?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Did you go out with her that day?

ANSWER: Yes, in her car, went to Denton.

QUESTION: Do you remember how you were dressed?

ANSWER: No, I don’t remember how I was dressed. I know I had a couple of new pair of Levis and a couple of new shirts that my brother bought me.

QUESTION: About how many times would you say you saw Denise when you were in Texas in the month of November 1969?

ANSWER: About five times.

QUESTION: What did you talk about? Do you remember?

ANSWER: I was mostly talking about the end of the world coming and things to that effect.

QUESTION: Did you talk about California?

ANSWER: Yes. I said something that I wanted to get back to California where it would be safe to be in the desert when the world came to an end or something like that

QUESTION: Did Denise say anything about coming to California?

ANSWER: She told me that she had been out one time. Yes, she wanted to come and live in California or something. She was up in the air about California, you know, she just liked California she said.

QUESTION: Was there ever a discussion between yourself and Denise about a leader in California., being a leader of some girls or anything of that nature?

ANSWER: I talked about, when I told her when I left the desert that it was just another guy and I in the desert with a bunch of girls.

QUESTION: Did you ever mention his name?

ANSWER: No, I don’t believe so.

QUESTION: Did you tell her that the other boy and you were the leaders of this group?

ANSWER: No. I just said that when I left the desert that there was just a couple of guys there, me and another guy there with a bunch of girls.

QUESTION: Do you remember generally what your mood was while you were with Denise?

ANSWER: Not really; kind of — it kind of ranged, you know, from different moods, I think; and around her, though, I was nice, I guess, you know.

QUESTION: She was an oId girl friend, was she?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Somebody you had known before you had come to California?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: All right. Do you remember being confined in the jail at McKinney?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And were you being visited regularly by your folks or on any sort of a regular basis by your folks?

ANSWER: My mother and my father would come every other day and then on weekends my sister or my brother would come.

QUESTION: How were you treated by the jailers there?

ANSWER: Very nice. I never did see much of them, really. You know, my cell was always locked and didn’t have bars on the front of the door like most jails. It was just kind of a closed iron room, you know and nobody never saw in or I never saw out, really.

QUESTION: Did you have any food problems while you were there?

ANSWER: No, my mother and father brought me food every other day when they would come. They would bring me stuff that I could eat, you know.

QUESTION: How about this spitting, was this a problem with you there in Texas?

ANSWER: Not that much. I did a little bit, but getting the right food that I could eat, you know, and I could keep it down pretty good and I didn’t have that problem.

QUESTION: What kind of food did you eat in Texas?

ANSWER: Juices and dry fruits, fresh fruits and honey and some pickled foods, you know.

QUESTION: What sort of foods have you been eating here in the jail since this trial started?

ANSWER: Since the trial started, I have been eating that same kind of stuff there; they are feeding me that kind of stuff now, fresh vegetables and fruit and a lot of juices and dried fruits.

QUESTION: Eating any meat?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Potatoes?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Bread?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Butter or fat of any sort?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Oils of any sort?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Now, when you left McKinney — strike that. While you were in McKinney did you see a lawyer in McKinney?

ANSWER: Yes, I had a lawyer there.

QUESTION: And when you left McKinney did he give you any instructions? Don’t tell us what they were, just yes or no.

ANSWER: Yes, he did,

QUESTION: Now, do you remember coming here to California, being in jail here in Los Angeles County?

ANSWER: Huh?

QUESTION: Do you remember being brought here?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember being weighed in at the County Jail?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember what you weighed when they brought you here from Texas?

ANSWER: 118.

QUESTION: Do you know how much you weigh today?

ANSWER: 121-1/2; I weighed this morning.

QUESTION: Did you ever weigh anything over the range between 118, 120, of thereabouts since you have been in the Los Angeles County —

ANSWER: I believe I weighed up to 124 before.

QUESTION: Did you ever weigh in the neighborhood of 160 when you were in the Los Angeles County Jail?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t.

QUESTION: What sort of treatment did you get while you were in the Los Angeles County Jail?

ANSWER: Well, when I first got out here, everybody was calling me Manson.

QUESTION: When you say everybody, who do you mean?

ANSWER: The deputies and everybody around my cell was hollering at me, and things like that.

QUESTION: What sort of food were you getting when they first brought you?

ANSWER: Oh, meat and potatoes and bread and, stuff like that.

QUESTION: Could you eat that?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you tell them you couldn’t eat it?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Were you getting any special diets at that time?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Were you spitting up?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Was this part of an act on your part, Mr. Watson?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Were you trying to fool these doctors?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Trying to deceive them?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Were you trying to make them think you were sick when you weren’t?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you want help when you first got here to this County Jail?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you remember much about the events leading up to your being sent to Atascadero?

ANSWER: Not much. I know I was strapped to a bed in the jail.

QUESTION: Do you remember doctors coming and talking with you before you went to Atascadero?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Then do you remember being sent to Atascadero?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And do you remember how you were treated when you first got to Atascadero? That is what your sleeping arrangements or accommodations were? Things of that nature.

ANSWER: Strapped into a bed again.

QUESTION: For how long? Do you remember?

ANSWER: Three days, I believe.

QUESTION: When you say to a bed, did you actually sleep on some kind of a bed?

ANSWER: I was strapped to a bed, but after they take you off the bed, I slept on a mat on the floor.

QUESTION: After you were unstrapped from the bed, did you ever have a bed again?

ANSWER: No

QUESTION: How did you sleep all the time you were at Atascadero?

ANSWER: At first they had me in wrist restraints with my arms tied around my waist and that is the way I would sleep.

QUESTION: On what? On a cot?.

ANSWER: No; on the floor.

QUESTION: How long did that last?

ANSWER: All the time I was there.

QUESTION: You mean all the period you were at Atascadero you never had a bed after you were initially untied from it?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you sleep by yourself or in a ward room?

ANSWER: Slept in a room by myself.

QUESTION: For how long?

ANSWER: All the time I was there.

QUESTION: When you were first taken to Atascadero, you said you were tied to a bed; is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

QUESTION: How long did that last, if you can remember?

ANSWER: About three days, I believe, or four days.

QUESTION: When you were released from there, do you remember where you went?

ANSWER: When I was released from Atascadero?

QUESTION: No, no. When you were released from the bed or from the room where you were tied to the bed?

ANSWER: I went to a room right across the hall and it was in the same place as where the bed was in the back part of the isolation or seclusion, they call it, I believe.

QUESTION: Is this also part of an isolation ward?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: What sort of accommodation did you have in that room, if you remember?

ANSWER: It was just a bare room with a hole in the floor to use the bathroom in.

QUESTION: And what else — what did you sleep on there?

ANSWER: The floor.

QUESTION: On some sort of a cot or I mean on a pad or something?

ANSWER: Yes, a little pad.

QUESTION: Now, you say there was a hole in the floor. Do you mean you had no lavatory facilities?

ANSWER: Right. There was just a hole in the floor and a bare room.

QUESTION: How long did you stay in that room?

ANSWER: I don’t know. It seems like it was about two or three weeks, maybe.

QUESTION: After you left that room, what sort of room did you go to?

ANSWER: A room, same kind of a room with a mat and had a commode and a lavatory.

QUESTION: And was it also in the isolation area, if you remember?

ANSWER: No. It was out on the ward, which was, you know, locked. That is the only place you could go but —

QUESTION: Do you remember what sort of food you got when you first got there?

ANSWER: When I was tied to the bed?

QUESTION: Yes.

ANSWER: They fed me some chocolate milk stuff and then I was spoon fed. My hands were strapped to the bed, you know, and they were feeding me, spoon feeding me.

QUESTION: That went on for three days?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Were you given any medication, as you recall?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: When you were sleeping in this room that you said had the hole in the floor, were you still in restraints?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: When you were removed from that room into the room where you had some sort of lavatory facilities, were you still in restraints?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Will you describe the restraints that you were in?

ANSWER: They have a piece of leather around each arm and then a belt running to those and then they are tied down to your waist, around your waist, and your arms are hooked down here, so when you eat, you have to go something like this, you know.

QUESTION: Was there a time when the belt was removed from your waist?

ANSWER: I don’t know how long it stayed on but they removed it after a while, after, I don’t know, I guess maybe a month. I don’t know, really.

QUESTION: What sort of treatment would you say you received at the hands of the attendants there, the technicians? How did you get along with them?

ANSWER: I got along fine with them but for a couple of times, I guess, you would say.

QUESTION: What happened on those occasions?

ANSWER: I wouldn’t eat some of the stuff that was on the tray and then when I wouldn’t do that, one time they took me back in the back and karate chopped me, you know.

QUESTION: Karate chopped you where?

ANSWER: Started here and then they —

THE COURT: The throat?

THE WITNESS: Yes. Hitting like this, then they went all the way down to here and they were kneeing with their knee. They would knee me in the mid-section and choke me until they brought me to with oxygen.

QUESTION BY MR. BUBRICK: Where did this occur?

ANSWER: In the back room, in the back part.

QUESTION: Do you remember who this was that did this to you?

ANSWER: It was my sponsors.

QUESTION: Would you say his name or their names?

ANSWER: Barnett was one of them, one was Weems, and there was two more but I can’t remember their names.

QUESTION: Did you do anything at or about the time you received this treatment other than not eat?

ANSWER: One time I gave away some food and that was against the rules and I had to write down the rule 100 times.

QUESTION: What was the rule?

ANSWER: Something about not supposed to trade or give away food.

QUESTION: Who made you do that?

ANSWER: Mr. Williams.

QUESTION: Do you remember anything else that was done about the food problem?

ANSWER: They did give me, after, they did give me some peanut butter after a while, you know.

QUESTION: I’m sorry; I meant by way of disciplinary action.

Did they ask you to do anything else because of some violations of the rule by you?

ANSWER: I had to stand up against the wall with a dot — there is a dot on the wall and I had to put my nose to it and stand there. I was on medication and I couldn’t stand there, so when I couldn’t stand there, when would fall to the floor, that’s another time they took me back in the back and kind of banged me around a little bit.

QUESTION: Did you ever bang any of the attendants around?

ANSWER: No, I never did do anything.

QUESTION: Did these events occur while you were still in restraints?

ANSWER: I’m not for sure. .

QUESTION: Were you trying to deceive the technicians or the doctors at Atascadero?

ANSWER: No, not at all.

QUESTION: Were you trying to act as if there was something wrong with you?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Did you do this, did you act at Atascadero in a conscious manner; were you consciously trying to do these things?

ANSWER: No, I was just myself when I was there.

QUESTION: You weren’t trying to act crazy, were you?

ANSWER: No

QUESTION: Incidentally, was there some incident where you told Dr. Owre something about, “I could kill you now” or, “I could kill you easily,” or something of that nature?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Think has already been gone into, your Honor; repetitive.

THE COURT: I think we have covered that once before.

MR. BUBRICK: Yes, I think I led into that initially, your Honor.

MR. BUGLIOSI: He testified to it, his version of what happened.

MR. BUBRICK: I don’t know whether he elaborated on it at the time; your Honor.

THE COURT: I will permit him to answer it.

QUESTION BY MR. BUBRICK: Do you know when that occurred, Mr. Watson?

ANSWER: I believe it was close to right before they sent me back here.

QUESTION: Do you remember where it was in the hospital that this occurred?

ANSWER: It was in the back part, the same part as where they would take you, you know.

QUESTION: Who was in the room other than yourself and Dr.Owre?

ANSWER: That other doctor that gave me the tests.

QUESTION: Bramwell?

ANSWER: I never did know his name.

QUESTION: A psychologist?

ANSWER: He gave me those tests.

QUESTION: All right.

ANSWER: And two of the technicians, Barnett and Weems; and another guy that had a beard, I remember.

QUESTION: Do you remember what Dr. Owre said to you just before you made that statement to him?

ANSWER: No, I can’t remember. I know he just said — they kept calling me Manson, and there wasn’t never any — there never was — they never raised their voices or anything, it was just that I told him that when I was with Manson and all of them that, I guess I could have killed anybody, you know, like if they were at the house that night.

QUESTION: How long would you say you were in this room with Dr. Owre?

ANSWER: About — just an interview, like, not too long.

QUESTION: When you responded to Dr. Owre, did you scream or yell?

ANSWER: No, never. I never raised my voice to any of them.

QUESTION: When you said, “I could kill you easily,” or “kill you no,” what was your tone of voice?

ANSWER: It was just a conversation, you know; it wasn’t any madness or anything, neither one of us.

QUESTION: Were you trying to deceive Dr. Owre at that time?

ANSWER: No, I was talking to him just like anybody else.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI

QUESTION: When you went to Denton with Denise the first time you smoked some marijuana with her?

ANSWER: Yes, that’s correct.

QUESTION: Where did you get the marijuana?

ANSWER: She had some friends in Denton and took me by her friends and they sold us some marijuana.

QUESTION: Did you tell Denise that you wanted to come out to northern California?

ANSWER: No, I can’t remember that. We did have some conversation about coming to California but I can’t remember — maybe to the desert, is about what I think I said; I’m not for sure, though.

QUESTION: Is it your understanding that the desert in California is in northern California?

ANSWER: I don’t think so.

QUESTION: So you don’t believe you spoke about northern California, then.?

ANSWER: I can’t recall it at all, northern California, saying northern California,

QUESTION: And you don’t recall telling Denise that you and another man were the leaders of this group?

ANSWER: No, the only thing I do recall is saying that when I left the desert that there was two of us in the desert and with a bunch of girls.

QUESTION: There was more than two of you, wasn’t there? There was Bruce Davis, Danny DeCarlo, Clem Tufts?

ANSWER: No, they weren’t there. Charlie left me off at the ranch house and all the rest of them, I believe, was in L.A.; and Charlie left me off at the ranch house there.

QUESTION: So there was just you and Charlie, then?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

QUESTION: For what period of time?

ANSWER: I believe just for about a day.

QUESTION: So when you were talking to Denise about your experiences in California with this group you lived with, you only told her about this one day?

ANSWER: No, I don’t believe so. I told her some more things about California, I believe.

QUESTION: But you only told her about this one day that you and this other man were the only men in the family; that’s the only day you told her that?

ANSWER: I don’t understand what you are saying now.

QUESTION: You indicated that you told Denise that there was only you and this other man and the girls.

ANSWER: This is when I left the desert, I believe.

QUESTION: That only existed for one day; so when you told her that, you were only talking about the one day period that you and this man were together?

ANSWER: I guess so, yeah, I guess; I’m not for sure what you are asking there

QUESTION: I believe you testified, Tex, that you told Denise that you and another man and several girls were in this group; is that correct?

ANSWER: Right. That is what I told her. That is the only thing I was talking about, I guess, at that time.

QUESTION: And you never told her that you and this other man were the leaders of this group?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: It is your testimony now that when you referred to the fact that you and this other man were with a bunch of girls, you were only talking about this one day that you and this other man were with a bunch of girls?

ANSWER: I said when I left the desert, another man and I, or there was two of us and a bunch of girls, another man and I and a bunch of girls.

QUESTION: That only occurred during one day, the one day that you were with another man with the girls?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: What about all the months and months and months when you — when there were other men in the family besides you and this other man?

ANSWER: I don’t know if I talked to her about that or not.

QUESTION: So you were just referring to this one day?

ANSWER: I believe so.

QUESTION: Why did this one day stick in your mind so much that you spoke about it to the exclusion of the other months that you were in California with the group?

ANSWER: I don’t know. I guess I was just trying to say that I had a bunch of girls out here or something.

QUESTION: You had sexual intercourse with Denise?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: This was at the Holiday Inn?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: In Denton?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: You got along fairly well when you were incarcerated in McKinney?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And the sheriff of McKinney is who?

ANSWER: It is my uncle.

QUESTION: And you ate all right there at the jail?

ANSWER: I ate what my mother brought me.

QUESTION: When you were brought back to Los Angeles from McKinney, when you were at the jail here in Los Angeles, you wouldn’t eat, is that correct? They had to tube feed you?

ANSWER: That was just, I believe, at the end. I ate what I could on the plates but I would spit most of it up.

QUESTION: You didn’t do too much talking when you were out here, did you, to anyone?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t.

QUESTION: You had a lot of physical problems; is that correct?

ANSWER: When I left Texas I felt fine.

QUESTION: Right. When you got out here you had some physical problems?

ANSWER: Yes. I had physical problems.

QUESTION: You were even relieving yourself on the floor; right?

ANSWER: I was tied to the bed. I couldn’t get up and go to the bathroom.

QUESTION: You mean the sheriff’s office here at the Los Angeles County Jail, Tex, never permitted you to go to the bathroom; is that what you are telling us?

MR. BUBRICK: That is not what he said.

THE WITNESS: I was tied to the bed when I went to the bathroom.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When you got up to Atascadero, you were not tube fed up there, were you?

ANSWER: No. I was spoon fed.

QUESTION: And you talked to people up there, didn’t you?

ANSWER: A little bit.

QUESTION: You wouldn’t lay in bed and remain mute for several days, would you, like you did here at the Los Angeles County Jail?

ANSWER: No. They just kept me down for three days and let me up.

QUESTION: But you, got along much better at Atascadero than you did down here at the Los Angeles County Jail?

ANSWER: Yes, uh-huh.

QUESTION: In fact, you put on 14 pounds up there; right?

ANSWER: I believe I did get up to 124 one time up there.

QUESTION: Before you were incarcerated in McKinney, when you were with Denise and your mother, this was before incarceration, you ate at your mother’s house; right?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: And you dressed yourself; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: And you would drive the car around town in Copeville; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Is that correct?

ANSWER: Not in Copeville l didn’t.

QUESTION: Well, in Denton and Dallas.

ANSWER: At Richardson I went to see Denise a couple of times.

QUESTION: You would go to a bar and have a beer and things like that; is that right?

ANSWER: Denise and I went to a grocery store one time and got a beer, no bars.

QUESTION: You communicated with people. You wouldn’t be mute and refuse to talk, would you?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Do you have any explanation, Tex, why you got along fairly well before you were arrested and you got along fairly well in the jail in McKinney and also up at Atascadero, but here at the Los Angeles County jail you did all types of things? Do you have any explanation for that?’

ANSWER: I guess just the treatment I was. getting at the jail.

QUESTION: Where at? The Los Angeles County jail?

ANSWER: The people hollering at me and officers were telling me that why didn’t I kill myself and I would save the state a lot of money. They told me that a bunch of times.

QUESTION: So when you refused to eat and you refused to talk and lost all this weight here at the Los Angeles County jail, that was in direct response to the way they were treating you at the L.A. County That is the only reason; is that correct?

ANSWER: I didn’t lose a lot of weight at the county jail. I weighed in at 118 I believe.

QUESTION: When you were sent to Atascadero you weighed 111, so you had lost 7 pounds; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, 7 pounds.

QUESTION: But I take it that your conduct at the Los Angeles County jail when you wouldn’t talk to anyone or you wouldn’t eat, you had to be tube fed, when you relieved yourself on the floor and things like that, this was in direct response to the way they were treating you here at the Los. Angeles County jail?

ANSWER: I believe so, yes.

QUESTION: There was no other reason, was there?

MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, I don’t know whether he would know if there was any other reason. I think it calls for a conclusion on his part.

THE COURT: If you know of any other reason.

THE WITNESS: I know I just flipped out in my cell and felt like a monkey and they tied me to the bed.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When you flipped out like a monkey, what did you do?

ANSWER: I remember I got up on the bars and started shaking the bars and I just felt like a monkey, you know. I felt I just, you know, I don’t know how I felt. I just know I was kind of — I don’t know.

QUESTION: Climbing up and down the bars like a monkey?

ANSWER: Uh-huh

QUESTION: Were you incoherent?

MR. BUBRICK: I think that would be a conclusion. I don’t know whether he would know,

MR. BUGLIOSI: Who can describe a man’s state of mind better than himself?

THE COURT: That is not a very logical question at all. When you flipped out and felt like a monkey, do you recall what you did?

THE WITNESS: Not that much.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Other than trying to climb the bars, or what have you, did you say anything? Did you do anything else?

ANSWER: Well, I was laughing and jumping around. That is about all I remember about that.

QUESTION: So as soon as you got better treatment, then, up at Atascadero, then there was no need to tube feed you anymore; is that correct?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: Is it correct what I said?

ANSWER: What did you say, again?

QUESTION: Well, you had been being tube fed down here in Los Angeles County, then you got better treatment up in Atascadero; then there was no need to tube feed you anymore; is that correct?

ANSWER: I know before I left Los Angeles I was drinking out of — they wouldn’t take my tube out of my nose; I ‘don’t know why they wouldn’t take it out of my nose, They wouldn’t take it out and it was hurting.

QUESTION: You claim that some of the technicians up at Atascadero hit you some karate blows and knocked you out?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: You didn’t like what they did to you?

ANSWER: I didn’t — I didn’t talk about it; I didn’t voice any opinion about it.

QUESTION: But you didn’t like it, did you?

ANSWER: I couldn’t say that. It seems like I did kind of like it.

QUESTION: You did like it?

ANSWER: I don’t know,

QUESTION: Do you feel that you are a masochist?

ANSWER: That is that?

MR. BUBRICK: I don’t know if he knows what that means. I think it calls for a conclusion.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Well, why did you like it? Do you like it when people beat you up?

ANSWER: I don’t really know. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t.

QUESTION: Who else was beating you up, other than the technicians at Atascadero, whom you claim beat you up? Who else beat you up?

ANSWER: Just them, as much as I can think of; just them

QUESTION: And you say now that you enjoyed it?

ANSWER: Well, I can’t say I enjoyed it, but I didn’t go against it any or I didn’t go with it, you know. I was just there.

QUESTION: Why didn’t you fight back?

ANSWER: I didn’t have any reason to fight back

QUESTION: When you left Atascadero, like all the patients leaving Atascadero, you were asked to sign a waiver of a complaint against the institution; isn’t that correct?

ANSWER: They put a sheet of paper in front of me and asked me if I had any broken bones or something, and I signed it, yes.

QUESTION: You signed the paper that said you didn’t have any broken bones?

ANSWER: I guess I did.

QUESTION: Did you read the document?

ANSWER: No, I didn’t read the document; I just left.

QUESTION: So you had no idea what you were signing?

ANSWER: No, I don’t look at much what I sign, I just sign it.

QUESTION: You thought maybe you were signing a broken bone document; is that it?

ANSWER: No, it didn’t make any difference what I was signing, I just signed what they put in front of me all the time.

QUESTION: But you did sign a waiver of complaint when you left Atascadero; is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes I believe that is what I understood it to be.

QUESTION: When you were brought back to Los Angeles from Texas and incarcerated here at the Los Angeles County Jail, was there any tension or any fear or anxiety in your mind over the fact that you were being brought back for trial?

ANSWER: No, everything was pretty good until, you know, until the guys started walking by my cell and people started hollering me about stuff, you know; seemed like I was in kind of two worlds and I had brought back into my mother’s and father’s things, but I still had Manson’s thing in me and then everybody started hollering at me about Manson and people started trying to visit me from Manson’s group and stuff and I wouldn’t visit them; and I just kind of went back into Manson’s thing.

QUESTION: And they called you Manson when you got out here, the deputies and co-inmates?

ANSWER: Yeah, they were always putting the Manson thing on me

QUESTION: That you were Manson?

ANSWER: That I was Manson and that — all that kind of stuff.

QUESTION: And you say that when you got up to Atascadero that the doctors up there, the psychiatrists who were charged with the responsibility of treating you, you say that they also called you Charles Manson?

ANSWER: What they would do, they’d be talking to me and they’d say — they’d say, “Mr. Manson,” and then, like they’d say, “I’m sorry, I meant Mr Watson”; that’s the way they would do that.

QUESTION: In other words, they were they were looking at you and they thought maybe that you were Charles Manson; then they caught themselves and said, “Sorry” —

ANSWER: No, that’s just what they did several times. I don’t know, you know, what — I know they would just — it could just be a mistake, you know; they would say, “Mr. Manson,” then they would say, “I am sorry, I meant Mr. Watson.”

QUESTION: Who did this, Dr. Owre?

ANSWER: Dr. Owre, I believe, yeah, in some interviews. Then the technicians would do it. I remember one time the technicians do things like that when they would put me to bed at night.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK

QUESTION: Charles, when you came here from McKinney did Mr. Boyd give you anything aside from instructions?

ANSWER: He told me not to talk to anyone until I saw my attorney out here.

QUESTION: Did he give you anything, in writing?

ANSWER: No, he just gave me a business card with the name of who I was supposed to call when I got out here.

QUESTION: Was there anything on the back of the card, if you remember?

ANSWER: Yeah, Mr. — I believe his name is Ransom.

QUESTION: Karl Ransom?

ANSWER: Yeah, I was supposed to call, him when I got here.

QUESTION: As a matter of fact, did he talk with you a number of times after you got here to California?

ANSWER: Two times, I believe.

QUESTION: Mr. Ransom did?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And then you followed his instructions, did you not.

ANSWER: Mr. Ransom’s

QUESTION: Yes, and Mr. Boyd.

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And, thereafter, mine?

ANSWER: Yes.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI

QUESTION: The first day you arrived at Atascadero you drank liquids and you had a regular meal; is that correct?

ANSWER: They brought me, I think, first — I don’t believe that they didn’t bring me any meat at first, I don’t think; and then they started.

QUESTION: I didn’t mean any meat, but a regular meal of solids?

ANSWER: Right; they just gave me a lot of chocolate milk, I know, a lot of it.

QUESTION: So you drank liquid an ate solid food the first day you arrived at Atascadero; is that correct?

ANSWER: I don’t know about the first day. It might have been the second day on the solid foods, but I drank a lot of stuff on the first day and I might have ate, I’m not sure.

QUESTION: You weren’t eating down here at the Los Angeles County jail before they sent you up to Atascadero, Tex. How did it happen that as soon as you arrived up at Atascadero you started drinking and eating; what is your explanation for that?

ANSWER: I have no explanation for it.

QUESTION: Was it because you had gotten away from Los Angeles and you had achieved something in your mind?

ANSWER: No, I don’t know, I just didn’t — I don’t know. I didn’t have any thoughts about anything then.

QUESTION: How do you explain not eating down here and eating as soon as you get up there?

ANSWER: I know down here I eat until about the last day, a little bit on my tray until they put the tube in there; then they took me up there right away. I ate the vegetables and stuff off my tray.

QUESTION: You were near death down here, weren’t you?

MR. BUBRICK: I don’t know if he knows that, your Honor.

THE COURT: Do you know that?

THE WITNESS: I didn’t have any feelings of anything then.

QUESTION BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You were being tube fed down here the last day before they sent you up to Atascadero; isn’t that right?

ANSWER: Yes, I had a tube in my nose.

QUESTION: Why wasn’t it necessary to tube feed you up at Atascadero, Tex; what is your explanation for that?

ANSWER: Like said before, I would have drank stuff here in this jail. I know when one of the psychiatrists came he gave me stuff to drink and had the tube in my nose, but they wouldn’t give me anything to drink like that here. They wanted to use the tube and the tube was hurting me.

QUESTION: So they preferred to feed you by tube rather than through your mouth; is that correct?

ANSWER: That’s correct.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK

QUESTION: Tex, do you remember the name of the doctor that came to see you just before you left for Atascadero?

ANSWER: No, I don’t know which one it was.

QUESTION: Did one of them, however, give you something to drink by mouth?

ANSWER: Yes, before —

QUESTION: That was while you still had the tube in you?

ANSWER: Yes, right.

QUESTION: That was the day before you came — or, went to Atascadero, was it not?

ANSWER: It was when he examined me; he gave me stuff to drink and I was drinking.

QUESTION: You took it by mouth?

ANSWER: Right. And when I would swallow, it would hurt, because the tube was going from my nose to my stomach.

QUESTION: As a matter of fact, you only had the tube in you one day, did you not?

ANSWER: I believe so, one day.

QUESTION: And up until the time they put the tube in you, you ate whatever you could or whatever you wanted to off the tray by mouth?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: And they only fed you by tube that one day?

ANSWER: That is right.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Nothing further.

THE COURT: You may step down

MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, apparently our last witness is not yet here. I would have hoped that I would have had word by him. I have been told that he will probably be here at 1:30. It is Dr. Abe.

THE COURT: He will be here at 1:30?

MR. BUBRICK: Yes. He told me that he had been subpoenaed elsewhere but that he felt that in all probability he would be through in time to be here at 1:30 and he will be our last witness.

THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. We will have our recess at this time until 1:30. Once again, heed the usual admonition, please.

(A recess was taken until 1:30 p.m of the same day however, Watson’s testimony was concluded).


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